Niall Paterson on Sunday 17.09.17 Interview with Dawn Butler Labour MP

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SKY NEWS – NIALL PATERSON ON SUNDAY – 10.00 – 17.09.17 – INTERVIEW WITH DAWN BUTLER, LABOUR MP

NIALL PATERSON: We have been joined now by Labour’s Shadow Women and Equalities Secretary, Dawn Butler, a very good morning to you. Let us start, given that we are in London, you are a London MP, with the events of the past couple of days, events in and around Parsons Green, the fifth successful terror attack we’ve seen in the UK just this year. Is this the new normal, is this what people who live in your constituency will simply have to deal with from now until some unknown point in the near future?

DAWN BUTLER: I think Cressida Dick said it quite succinctly today when she said we shouldn’t think that this is the norm but we do need to be more vigilant as we go about our daily lives and our daily jobs so we should continue as normal and we just should be more vigilant. It is shocking what’s happened, it is shocking that we’ve had five attacks but we also have to give credit to our police officers and our public servants who have also stopped a lot of attacks from happening and I think we really need to give due credit to those police officers and ensure that they know that they are appreciated.

NP: You mentioned the police there and of course they came from both the Met and British Transport in this particular instance, announced this week they are going to be getting a pay rise, a cause for celebration amidst all the bad news that we’ve become so used to.

DAWN BUTLER: Well it is not actually a pay rise in terms of it’s less than inflation so 1.75% is less than 2.9% inflation so essentially it is still a cut and for seven years they’ve not had a pay rise and we heard just last week that some of them were feeling quite despondent and down. When you think about the work that they’re doing we need to make sure that we keep their spirits up because they’re keeping us safe and I think that’s the most important thing, that we have not just to say that we appreciate them but our actions need to reflect that as well.

NP: So based on that we can assume that Labour is committing to above inflation pay rises?

DAWN BUTLER: Labour is committed to scrapping the cap. We’ve said it, we’ve had it in our manifesto, it’s not a new policy, it’s a policy that’s there and is fully costed and we’ve said it in our manifesto and that’s what we, if we were in government that’s what we would do and the important thing is that Labour is the government in waiting, we are not yet in government and so all we can do is analyse the situation that we know, give a statement of intent to what a Labour government would look like and a Labour government would feel like and that’s what we did. That’s what we did for the general election in our manifesto.

NP: But you are actually attacking the government for, in effect, not going above that inflation rate, for delivering in real terms a pay cut so it is not an unfair assumption to think that the Labour party would do something different.

DAWN BUTLER: You’re quite right, we’ll do something different because the country is in the state that it is …

NP: So how much money have you actually committed to dealing with the issue public sector pay then?

DAWN BUTLER: As I said, the Labour party, we are the government in waiting so what we can do is say this is what a Labour government will look like, this is what you can be guaranteed under a Labour government, that is our statement of intent as a government in waiting so we’ve committed the £4 billion to ensure that we would scrap the cap. It has been fact checked time and time again, everybody has fact checked the figures and the figures have stacked up and I think the important thing is, is to sort of establish why is it that our government treats public service workers the way that they do.

NP: But £4 billion isn’t enough to give the public sector an above inflation pay rise though is it?

DAWN BUTLER: But we’re not talking about an above inflation pay rise.

NP: But you are criticising the government for not giving police officers an above inflation pay rise.

DAWN BUTLER: What they could do is they could give public sector workers an inflation pay rise, that’s what they could do now if they had the political will to do it and they are choosing not to do it and that’s the issue here, that’s the problem here. The problem is, is that you say you appreciate public sector workers but really when it comes down to it you don’t deliver on what you are talking about and that’s what this government says.

NP: But aren’t you both saying exactly the same thing? You are slightly diverging in terms of the figures but you are saying it is bad in essence that the government is forcing a pay cut upon the public sector but on your own figures £4 billion a year wouldn’t be enough for you to do anything other than offer them a real terms pay cut.

DAWN BUTLER: £4 billion is enough to make sure that public sector workers – and remember, as I keep reiterating, we are a government in waiting, we’re not the government, when we have got the books in front of us we’ll be able to then decipher what else we’ll be able to deliver for public sector workers but we need to see the figures and the books but at the moment we are not in government, we are the government in waiting and the important thing …

NP: So you are just guessing then aren’t you? Look, the IFS says if you want to give a real terms pay rise to the public sector needs at least £7 billion a year minimum so you don’t have the money to do it and you are shouting at the government because they don’t have the money to do it.

DAWN BUTLER: No, no, I’m not shouting at the government, what I am saying to the government is you have all this rhetoric in terms of what you’re saying but when it comes to delivering you are not delivering at all for public sector workers and public sector workers deserve better and they deserve to be respected. They deserve not to have a pay cut that they’ve had for the last seven years, to be 20% worse off than they were in 2010. Our public sector workers deserve more than that.

NP: I have to say I am not entirely clear on your plans. You are criticising the government because they are not giving them an above inflation pay rise, your own plans don’t give them an above inflation pay rise. Look, that’s one area of policy in which there is considerable confusion …

DAWN BUTLER: I don't think there’s any confusion, I think I’ve been quite clear.

NP: I think there is confusion, I mean what is your party’s Brexit policy at the moment? I’ve been trying for a couple of weeks now to get to grips with it, it’s pretty confusing isn’t it?

DAWN BUTLER: I don’t see what’s confusing, I think we’ve been quite consistent in terms of what our policy is. There are certain things if you like that are in concrete and that is what the Labour party wants to do is to have a jobs first Brexit, we want a Brexit that is built on jobs, built on skills and built on infrastructure, what’s good for the country. That hasn’t changed at all in Labour’s party policy.

NP: Okay, I’ll explain exactly why I’m confused. Essentially the fundamental dividing line as we see it between a hard and a soft Brexit is the issue of the single market so back in July we had Jeremy Corbyn asked if he could be categorical about whether or not we would be in the single market, we would leave the single market under a Labour government and he said yes. A month later you had the Deputy Leader saying this: “We think that being part of the single market is important in those transitional times and it might be a permanent outcome.” Last Sunday on this very show I asked your colleague John Ashworth, I put that quote to him and said is that right and he said no, I don't think that is the case. And then – and I hope you are keeping up with this because it keeps shifting – the very next day Jeremy Corbyn came out, contradicted him again and said “We want a relationship which allows us to trade within the single market whether that is formal members is open to discussion.” I mean Chessington World of Adventures has nothing on the Labour party when it comes to roller coaster rides.

DAWN BUTLER: That’s a good line!

NP: But explain the policy because I honestly don’t understand.

DAWN BUTLER: The policy is really quite clear …

NP: So single market – are we going to be in or are we going to be out?

DAWN BUTLER: Well we’ll be in during the transitional arrangements. There need to be transitional arrangements so you know there is all this talk about the cliff edge, that we are running towards this cliff edge and I’ll tell you what, the Tories are making such a mess of these negotiations that we are having to clarify all the time what our position as a country should be and Theresa May is doing a speech this week, okay, and we need to be clear when she does that in terms of what our transitional arrangements will be.

NP: And we’ll be discussing that a lot in depth later but clear this up then, so clear this up then, are we going to be in the single market after that transitional period, is there any possibility of us being in the single market after that transitional period?

DAWN BUTLER: A transitional period means that we will be in the single market for as short a time as possible …

NP: And then?

DAWN BUTLER: … but for as long as necessary because what we don’t want to see is our economy fall off that cliff edge because of the uncertainty to businesses so Labour’s position is, and I’ll make it …

NP: Are we going to be in the single market after the transitional period, yes or no?

DAWN BUTLER: No, it’s a transitional period so we’ll be in the single market during the transitional period, that is the Labour policy and that is because we want to avoid a cliff edge that businesses have said we need to avoid in order to ensure that our economy grows and doesn’t fall and stagnate. We’ve seen businesses saying they are not investing in skills or infrastructure because of the uncertainty over Brexit so we have to be clear as a government in waiting – and remember we are not the government, we are the government in waiting – and this is our statement of intent.

NP: We may well be asking for greater clarity during the week but for now, Dawn Butler, thank you very much indeed.

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