Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Andy Burnham Mayor of Greater Manchester

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: As MPs in Westminster grapple with Brexit I wonder whether our next guest is relieved to be one step removed from the Parliamentary circus but of course I’ll still try to pin him down as to what he thinks the solution is to the impasse. So we’re joined now by the Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. Thank you very much for being on the show this morning.

ANDY BURNHAM: You’re welcome, Sophy.

SR: Now Theresa May has written to her colleagues saying that history will judge them for the part they have played in the Brexit process so how do you think that MPs in Westminster will be judged by history for what they’re getting up to?

ANDY BURNHAM: Quite badly if things don’t change. This letter actually I think, Sophy, sheds a bit of light on what is now the deepest political crisis of our lifetime. If you read it, and I encourage all people to do that, it tells you that it is all about the Tory party – or should I say, the two Tory parties that we’ve got because there was a government Minister last week saying that the ERG are effectively a party within a party but what she says in the letter is that she spent the last two and a half years trying to bring these factions together and I think that at the end of the day is the problem, they can’t be brought together. I did spend 16 years in Parliament as you said and I sat through all of those debates where Bill Cash and Kenneth Clarke were just arguing – there is no agreement between these people and that’s the Prime Minister’s failing. She spent all of her efforts to try and do that when actually all along there’s probably a deal that could get through Parliament and I believe that’s a deal with a customs union as part of it, as Jeremy Corbyn has suggested. So it’s a very frustrating situation but now we are in very perilous waters indeed.

SR: You see this is the bit I don’t understand. It is easy to point the finger at the Conservative party isn’t it? You say there is a deal to be done with a customs union that Labour could support but there is a customs union in the Withdrawal Agreement and the future relationship hasn’t been decided yet so why is Labour risking no-deal and not backing the Prime Minister’s deal?

ANDY BURNHAM: Well I think this is where Europe needs to accept some of the blame because they have set out a Withdrawal Agreement that is very detailed and quite punitive in some ways but we have a political declaration alongside it that is all very vague and that just doesn’t work, as far as I’m concerned. You need to know what that relationship is going to be, if we’re going to accept all of the terms in the Withdrawal Agreement but I do come back to my main point, Sophy. I don’t believe the Tory party can be united on this particular topic and at the moment it feels like the Conservative party is holding the whole country to ransom and that can’t be allowed to carry on. I think there is a deal that could be put to Parliament and the Prime Minister needs to do that, regardless of what damage it may do internally to the Tory party. Without that, I don’t see how we can move forward.

SR: I am also keen to try and pin you down on your position on a second referendum because I’m a little bit confused by a some of the things that you’ve said about it in the past. In September you said as a last resort, when everything else has failed, then and only then should we consider holding a second vote but then a month earlier in August you said ‘my frustration with those leaping to a second referendum is that it further inflames the idea of an arrogant political class which isn’t listening’. So at which point did a second referendum go from arrogant to responsible?

ANDY BURNHAM: Well those two things are entirely compatible. I was warning back in August about the dangers of a second referendum and I still believe that it would be fraught with problems, Sophy, it would cause lasting division in the country I think for a generation so those comments stand. When I then gave a more detailed speech in September I said it should be the very last resort. The only thing I think is worse is a no-deal Brexit so in that scenario when we are at that cliff edge, at that point I would support a second referendum and I think actually that was broadly the position that was then adopted by the Labour party at its annual conference, so I remain in that position today. I do believe we should do everything possible to honour the result of the referendum and to get on with a deal, a Brexit deal that works. For us, the customs union is crucial. Greater Manchester sends 60% of its exports to Europe, now we cannot be in a position where from the beginning of April onwards those businesses are facing barriers and tariffs, we can’t be that would damage those businesses, it will result in jobs being lost. So that is why we’re saying we need that working customs arrangement and I’m afraid that the time has come for the Prime Minister to part company with those hardliners in her party because there is not a deal that she can do with them that would be acceptable to the rest of the country.

SR: So just to be clear, if you’re saying that the only thing that is preferable to a second referendum is no-deal, does that mean you would accept the Prime Minister’s deal above a second referendum?

ANDY BURNHAM: No, I don't think we should be forced to accept a sub-optimal deal with all of the uncertainties around the situation in Northern Ireland, no, I don't think we should be required to accept that. There is a better deal I believe that can be done and one that would unite Parliament and it is a deal that has a customs arrangement as part of it. I think there is a majority in Parliament for that but the Prime Minister won’t put that proposal to Parliament for fear of the damage it will do internally to the Conservative and Unionist party. Now this is the problem, Sophy, this is the point that we’ve arrived at. Other Tory leaders in the past have taken on these hardliners and I am afraid it is time for the Prime Minister to either do that or let Parliament take control of this situation.

SR: Okay, we’ve talked a lot about Conservative divisions over Brexit which are probably clear but there are also genuinely held Labour divisions over Brexit as well. There are also a lot of rumours going around about a new party forming, about some MPs perhaps splitting away from Labour and resigning the whip. Do you think it is inevitable that that is going to happen?

ANDY BURNHAM: No, I don't think it’s inevitable. The colleagues that I work with in Parliament have a deep loyalty to the Labour party so I think at the moment it is more speculation than reality but you’re right, it’s a very turbulent time in British politics, Sophy, and we’re living through a degree of uncertainty I don't think any of us have ever experienced and there has to be a realignment I guess coming out of all of this. In these parts I think the big thing that people felt when they voted in the referendum wasn’t just that they wanted a different relationship with Europe, they wanted the UK Parliament to work differently, to look after parts of the country like this that have always been neglected in our London-centric system so I think coming out of this we do need to see some realignment, not necessarily within the political parties but actually within the country. I don't think we can carry on with this over-centralised political system, as I say, that is very London-centric and leaves large parts of the country without the investment that it needs and that is so obvious when it comes to transport up here and the difference between transport here and what people experience in the south. So these are the kind of issues I think are going to need to be addressed when we finally come through this Brexit debate, and we must come through it, Sophy, because we’ve experienced a real blight here on day to day decision making. We’re still waiting here in Greater Manchester for the government to give us the compensation for the cost of the moorland fires back in the summer. This isn’t the normal running of UK government, things are completely on hold at the moment and we can’t carry on like this because we’re drifting into very dangerous territory indeed.

SR: If things are as bad as you paint a picture of them, why aren’t Labour doing better in the polls? Is it the leadership that’s the problem?

ANDY BURNHAM: I think we’re in a position where, as you say, there’s no unity if you like in the two main parties so I think the country are saying through those polls that they’re not sure where both of the main parties are. There’s a poll today that says they’re neck and neck, I think that reflects the fact that there is a confused debate going on in the Tory party and a confused debate going on within the Labour party, that’s what the opinion polls are saying right now. I think we do need to come through this period and get back to focusing on domestic issues that have been very neglected I would say in the last two years. People are living through really tough times but there’s not a sense at the moment that people in Parliament are understanding that or doing anything about it. I think the level of disconnect, Sophy, between Parliament and the people has never been greater than it is right now.

SR: Okay, well let’s talk about some of those domestic issues shall we? Homelessness is clearly a huge issue for many towns and cities across the country: you said that you would eradicate homelessness in Greater Manchester by 2020, you’ve only got a year to go, are you going to do it?

ANDY BURNHAM: I didn’t quite say that, I said that I would end rough sleeping and there’s a difference between those two things but I’m not trying to do the politician thing and sidestep the ….

SR: So are you going to end rough sleeping?

ANDY BURNHAM: Well we recently recorded the first fall in levels of people sleeping rough in Greater Manchester for eight years so we believe we’ve turned the tide and things are now heading in the right direction and one of the reasons for that is because we are the only city region in the country that through this winter has sought to give a place for every person sleeping rough to go every night of the week and it has really impressive results. It’s not a perfect scheme but already almost 500 people have moved from that stable provision within those shelters to a fixed address and this is my frustration, Sophy, to be honest. If the government were to focus a little more on bread and butter issues like that, I think we could make more progress more quickly. Instead we saw Universal Credit rolled out here over the course of the last year and that only added to the problem that I’m facing. But nevertheless, no, I don’t back away from it. In my view in this day and age, in a country as wealth as this, we should be able to put a roof over every head every night of the week and I don’t believe to have some people who are successful in society, other people have to sleep in doorways. This in my view is a national scandal. We have the means to fix it, we should get on and fix it. You know, the need for safe, affordable housing in my view should be a human right in UK law and I believe those are some of the changes we need to see to bring this country back together once this Brexit debate is over.

SR: And just finally while we’ve got you, Donald Trump has called today on the UK and other European countries to take back Islamic State fighters and put them on trial otherwise, in his words, they are going to permeate Europe. Now there are dozens of Jihadis from Manchester who are currently unaccounted for so what do you think should happen? Do they need to come back to the UK and also how do you deal with Jihadi wives such as Shamima Begum?

ANDY BURNHAM: Well you won’t be surprised that not for the first time I don’t agree with Donald Trump. I don't think it should be automatic that people come back. I read all the details of that story last week and if somebody leaves this country and joins a group that is actively plotting to harm and kill people in this country, it surely can’t be right that those people come and walk straight back in when it’s convenient. I know that some of those caught up in the Manchester attack feel very strongly about this situation because of the echoes of the situation that happened there so no, I don’t believe that Donald Trump is right about this. I understand the legal complexities that the government will be facing but I would think the vast majority of people here in Greater Manchester would think if you’ve left this country and if you’ve walked away and joined a group plotting to harm us, you don’t come back. The thing was with this the lack of remorse, that is what I think I found really shocking and I’m sure other people would find shocking too. It’s a difficult situation but no, I don't think there is any guarantees that that is what happens.

SR; Okay, Andy Burnham, thank you very much for being on the programme.

ANDY BURNHAM: Thank you very much.