Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Brandon Lewis

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: Cabinet unity has been an elusive thing in recent times but it’s been achieved, at least for now, without a single resignation but will it last? Joining me to discuss, the Conservative Party Chairman, Brandon Lewis. Mr Lewis, a very good morning to you.

BRANDON LEWIS: Good morning.

NP: How did Theresa May do it? Whenever I take a trip away with my mates for the weekend at least a couple of us end up falling out and she’s managed to get them all to agree to things that they previously said they would never agree to.

BRANDON LEWIS: Well actually I think partly the reality is we all get on very well and were focused on having one key outcome, which is a united Cabinet with a clear position for the British government and the United Kingdom to get a good deal as we leave the European Union. That’s something everybody was united on, we had a good day’s discussion and we have come to a completely agreed Cabinet position.

NP: You were there, did Boris Johnson describe it as a turd?

BRANDON LEWIS: Well, I think one of the challenges of a 13 hour day …

NP: A polished turd?

BRANDON LEWIS: … with all these meetings, first of all I have always taken a rule not to go through and give details of what’s been said by individuals in Cabinet and it’s very easy to take a, what can sometimes be seen as a joke in a particular conversation, somewhat out of context and make a story out of it. The reality is that Boris and all of us came to an agreement about a strong package that we think is good for the United Kingdom economy, delivers on what the Brexit vote was about in 2016 and for someone who represents a very strong Leave constituency that’s really important to me as a constituency MP as well as a member of the Cabinet, and a deal that is good for our economy as we leave the European Union.

NP: Let’s try then and work through a few of the bits. As a few on this programme have said today, we need to wait until we see the White Paper, but you may know more than I do – in fact I’m sure you do know more than I do. In terms of the arrangement on goods, how exactly is that going to work?

BRANDON LEWIS: Well the full details as you say quite rightly will be in that White Paper which we’ll publish on Thursday this week and what we’re saying is, on goods which is that roughly covers for about 20% of what we do, we are saying upfront we would have that Common Rule Book and that is quite a sensible thing. If you do any trade deal from scratch with a big partner, let alone the single biggest trading bloc in the world, it is logical you have an agreement up front about how that works, what those goods are but importantly, as you go forward, should you after that point decide to make changes, the British Parliament, the UK government will have the chance to say yes or no. There’s a good example of this, we did this effectively actually just a few weeks ago when Parliament considered the new rules on GDPR with data and things like that and took a decision to go forward so we had good data access and sharing across Europe as well, so Parliament will be sovereign on any changes as we go forward.

NP: We’ll discuss the sovereignty point in just a second but it strikes me that given ours is a services based economy, the other 80% comes from that, financial services, we’re losing passporting, I mean we’re going to lose jobs as a result of the deal that is currently on the table proposed by Theresa May, in the financial services sector.

BRANDON LEWIS: Well actually this is the key part of the deal, that we’ve got that flexibility around the part of our economy, the services sector, financial services, which is not just important in terms of the work we do in the EU and we want to make sure we get a good deal with the EU, but actually is where the growth and opportunities are for us to trade globally and internationally and there are huge opportunities for us, whether it’s with America, Asia and other parts of the world, to do those deals.

NP: We very well may reshape our entire economy over a period of years but in terms of losing EU passporting, that is going to have a negative impact on financial services here, that is going to mean lost jobs isn’t it?

BRANDON LEWIS: Actually I think what this package can offer, and we’d need to see Europe get serious about coming forward and discussing and negotiating these opportunities that are there, I think because we are such important trading partners on services and financial services as well, we are such a centre for financial services there is a really good opportunity actually I think for growth and investment and we’ve seen that, week in week out, as businesses continue to invest in the UK.

NP: But you can’t guarantee can you, that there will not be jobs lost in the financial services sector, that there will not be money lost to the UK Exchequer as a result of losing passporting?

BRANDON LEWIS: Well actually I would contest that using a slightly different terminology which is I am absolutely confident that this package will mean our economy, including financial services, can continue to grow in terms of the work it does with our partners in business centres across Europe but also with the rest of the world. That’s good for the economy and can lead to more jobs.

NP: Isn’t the truth of this Common Rule Book, and I understand why you use that phraseology, isn’t the truth that in essence, in perpetuity, we are bound to the rules that the European Union sets, that those more Brexit-y colleagues of yours who say that we will be a rule taker and not a rule maker, they are 100% correct?

BRANDON LEWIS: Actually no, I don’t accept that at all. I think we have got to be very clear, as with any trade deal you would agree at the beginning a rule book around how that will work, I think it’s right that we make that decision to do that, not least of all because if you are selling goods into the EU – and if you sell goods into America, if you trade with America you have to abide by their rules…

NP: There will clearly be consequences if, as you say, we exert our sovereignty and we say no. The consequences would be a massive hit to our national finances.

BRANDON LEWIS: Well the key point that I was going to make, Niall, which I will just finish is to say if the EU later on decides to make changes then yes, we will have the right to say no, we’re not accepting that. So we are not going to be a rule taker, we have the choice whether we do or not as with any trade deal …

NP: It’s face saving.

BRANDON LEWIS: If you’d just let me finish, as with any trade deal, if you have a negotiated position and one party then wants to change those rules down the line, the other party has a chance to say no. You do that, you have the sovereign choice about that, but you have to yes, think about what that means. Does it mean good opportunities, does it mean that there is a consequence? And absolutely but we can make that decision and that will be a matter for the British UK government and Parliament.

NP: Can you explain the position on ECJ and the idea that it will no longer have jurisdiction here?

BRANDON LEWIS: Yes, absolutely. What it means, at the moment an individual, an organisation or business, at a court can go directly to the ECJ so effectively it is our country’s supreme court. That will end, under this package that absolutely ends, so the laws are decided by British courts. Now one of the points that has been raised, I think I heard earlier on on this show and certainly on a few things I’ve seen over the last 24 hours, is that in effect British courts would take account of what the ECJ does. The reality is that British courts take account of what Canadian, American, Australia’s courts does where they are relevant to UK law, that’s no different to anywhere else …

NP: But it wouldn’t mean taking a decision in the Canadian Supreme Court would it? It would mean us interpreting our laws in line with European laws where we have an agreement to do so, isn’t that right? It’s not the same as Canada, it’s not the same as the United States.

BRANDON LEWIS: Well actually it is not quite like that either. What happens at the moment is that people can go directly to that court as a supreme court – that ends. So the ECJ’s direct jurisdiction ends, exactly what people wanted when they voted in the referendum. If there is a dispute that goes beyond that, there will be a mechanism which we will outline in that White Paper, that’s a joint committee that would come together as it does in any international trade deal but that direct reference to the ECJ would end.

NP: Yes but in circumstances, particularly where it applies to goods, we would have in essence High Court of Appeal, Supreme Court, ECJ still.

BRANDON LEWIS: No, no, the Supreme Court, the UK Supreme Court would be our top court, would make the decisions. They can – and it is a matter for the court – take …

NP: The Supreme Court would ignore the decisions of the ECJ in regards to goods?

BRANDON LEWIS: They can, they can take account of ECJ decisions in terms of how you interpret European law and European goods in the same way they would on Canadian law and Canadian goods if we had a trade deal in that sense with Canada, that’s common practice but the ECJ’s direct jurisdiction would end.

NP: In what sense is this agreement ending freedom of movement?

BRANDON LEWIS: Oh absolutely, it is one of the things the Prime Minister has been exceptionally clear about consistently, I think in her time as Home Secretary as well, it’s one of the toughest stances that we’ve seen in the sense of making sure that we deliver something that I know my residents and many around the country feel strongly about and that is freedom of movement will end next year when we leave the European Union. What this paper, which is the three pages we’ve put out and the White Paper will give more detail on Thursday outlines, is about making sure a German businessman visiting the UK to go and see their car manufacturing plant without naming a particular car plant, can come and do that easily. A British businessman going to do a deal in France or holidaymakers going to Spain in summer can do that as easily as they do now, this is not about, this is not about people coming here to live in the immigration sense. That policy, our immigration policy once we’ve left the European Union, as we said before, we’ll publish that after the Independent Migration Advisory Committee has fed back to the government in September this year, the Home Secretary Sajid Javid is very keen to have a modern new immigration system that delivers for this country and that is a separate issue.

NP: But it strikes me that this mobility framework, you know, EU and UK citizens can continue to travel to each other’s territories and can apply for study and work, I mean that’s what goes on right now.

BRANDON LEWIS: Well actually one of the things we want to do is to make sure that those citizens can continue to do this. I want to be able to go and see my counterparts around Europe as easily as I do now, I want British businessmen to be able to go out there, do those deals and bring that business back to the UK, that’s what that is about.

NP: But there will be a cap then on EU migration?

BRANDON LEWIS: There will be an end to freedom of movement. The only reason I’m not …

NP: Will there be a cap?

BRANDON LEWIS: The only reason I’m not going to outline a guaranteed cap is because we’ve got the Migration Advisory Committee, I as Immigration Minister in my last job and the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister have all been clear, we want to take an evidence based approach to our new immigration policy and we will do that after the Migration Advisory Committee has fed back but freedom of movement, that freedom to come and live here and work here from the EU for 12 months or more which is immigration, that ends when we leave the European Union.

NP: In the absence of a commitment to a cap on migration, on immigration from the European Union, this looks very much like freedom of movement hasn’t come to an end.

BRANDON LEWIS: In the sense of if you’re interpreting a cap as freedom of movement, absolutely. Freedom of movement from the European Union ends when we leave in March 2019.

NP: Just going back to that meeting at Chequers, were you surprised that people like David Davis who’d described this document in very negative terms, Liam Fox, Boris Johnson, all very easily fell into line. The assertion made earlier in the programme was this was rather more to do with the Conservative party holding itself together rather than the good of the nation.

BRANDON LEWIS: Actually what I saw on Friday, what I see consistently in my colleagues across the Cabinet, is that we have got a great pool of talent in the party generally and certainly in the Cabinet specifically, was people coming together to come up with a package and a deal that is absolutely the right package and deal for the United Kingdom. One that we can negotiate and deliver with our partners in Europe, important friends and trading partners, that is ultimately good for the United Kingdom. This is about the government coming together to do the right thing for the country.

NP: Does Boris Johnson’s ministerial car matter more to him than his principles?

BRANDON LEWIS: Boris is absolutely focused on getting the right deal for the country, as we all are. That’s what brings us together and that means we’re such a strong, united Cabinet.

NP: Ah, not an answer but I’ll take that anyway. Mr Lewis, many thanks for being with us, always good to see you.