Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Chris Heaton Harris Brexit Minister

Sunday 17 February 2019

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Our next guest is a former MEP, whose years at the European Parliament merely strengthened his Euroscepticism, and a former Chair of the European Research Group of backbench Conservative MPs, perhaps better known for his dodgy dad jokes on Twitter, joining us now is the Brexit Minister, Chris Heaton-Harris, thank you very much for being with us.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: My pleasure.

SR: It feels like it is a bit of a strange week to be interviewing you because it feels like it’s kind of Groundhog Day. Theresa May has been back to Brussels again to ask for more concessions, MPs have voted again against the government’s Brexit plan, are we in Brexit purgatory here?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well I think it can feel like that sometimes and certainly in Parliament the words Groundhog and Day are mentioned in just about every speech and have been since the beginning of January but there is actually a process and there is a definite plan. Parliament has made up its mind on a couple of things, 1) it voted to activate Article 50 so we are leaving the European Union on the 29th March and that does mean actually that if we do not have a negotiated deal then we leave without a negotiated deal on the 29th March. The second is the only positive thing that Parliament has voted for, there’s an amendment by the Chairman of the 1922 Committee, Sir Graham Brady, which is where actually a number of people – the whole Conservative party, the DUP and indeed lots of Labour MPs – came together to say that they wanted changes to the backstop and then they could vote for the Prime Minister’s deal.

SR: But this is the problem though isn’t it? You say you want changes to the backstop but this is a two-way negotiation and Brussels has been absolutely hard line on this and even your own Conservative colleague, Steve Baker, said the negotiations were a complete waste of time according to leaked WhatsApp messages in the Sunday Times.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well I don’t think the negotiations are a complete waste of time.

SR: Well that’s good! It would be worrying if you said they were.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Yes, I’m quite pleased about that too and there is a huge amount of activity, as you see the Prime Minister is going to see President Juncker, my boss the Secretary of State for the Department of Exiting the European Union Steve Barclay is out there tomorrow, the Attorney General is going out to Brussels on Tuesday – there is a huge amount of activity on this and there is also a huge amount of noise coming in from individual member states into the European Commission because actually everybody wants to have a deal.

SR: At the same though, we were talking about Groundhog Day, this continued uncertainty is having an impact. I can understand why the government might want to run the clock down but it’s having an impact on businesses. We can have a look for example at what FlyBMI said in their statement explaining their reasons for going into administration, they said ‘Current trading and future prospects have also been seriously affected by the uncertainty created by the Brexit process which has led to our inability to secure valuable flying contracts in Europe.’ I mean this is starting to have real-world impact now.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: So the government is not trying to run the clock down, the government is trying to get a negotiated deal with our European partners. We put that to the vote in the House of Commons, it did not pass. The House of Commons has decided what it would like to see which is the Brady Amendment which I mentioned not so long ago …

SR: So why aren’t you speeding things up? I mean 100 MPs are going on holiday next week.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Because as you rightly said, we are negotiating with another group of people, we’re not just negotiating with ourselves as some people seem to think. Actually we are in a very broad negotiation with our European partners, we’ve focused on what Parliament believes is the right thing to focus on and that’s where we are trying to get the deal nailed down.

SR: Theresa May has written to Conservative MPs today, a sternly worded letter. She is saying ‘History will judge us all for the parts we played in this process.’ If you carry on in the same vein as you are now, how do you think history will judge the Conservatives?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well history is going to judge the Conservative party for delivering on the referendum result that the British people voted for in massive numbers, 17.4 million people voted to leave the European Union, and we will be judged because we will deliver on that. There is also a huge number of Labour MPs who have been delivering on that too. The confusion that exists more than anything is confusion as to what Labour’s policy is – and I mean they seem to not particularly know it as they have had to try and clarify it to you, whether they want to actually help get a deal over the line and actually identify the arguments within the letter that Jeremy Corbyn sent to the Prime Minister. He is basically saying we quite like your deal, we just can’t vote for it because politics is too important.

SR: If there was a permanent customs union then Labour would vote for you.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: But a permanent customs union is actually staying within the European Union.

SR: Well it’s not, is it? It’s not staying within the European Union is it, it might not be the kind of Brexit you want to see but it’s not staying within the European Union.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: So Labour set themselves six tests for what Brexit should look like …

SR: That was their previous policy.

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Yes, well they do like chopping and changing I do know but one of those tests is actually impossible to fulfil so they have got a bit of a debate going on in their party. I am not trying to disguise that we haven’t in the Conservative party but the government’s position is to get this over the line, a negotiated deal by the 29th March … well as soon as possible and we’ve got a lot of work to do, we’re working in Brussels this week, a huge amount of effort going in to get this deal.

SR: You can see why Theresa May might be a bit nervous though relying on her own backbenchers to support her deal when you see what’s happened this week when enough Conservative MPs voted against her approach which meant she lost that vote. I mean it’s embarrassing, isn’t it, when Brussels look at that? Are you frustrated as a former Chair of the European Research Group at how some of your colleagues have been voting?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: No, no, I don't think I’m one of the most pedantic eurosceptics you’ll find in Parliament and I can understand how some people really do worry about the detail of everything but this week’s … essentially what happened last week is that Parliament decided to vote for nothing so we go back to what we voted for before and as I said at the very top of the interview, we voted to act on Article 50, to leave the European Union on the 29th March and the one plan that Parliament has come behind, that there is a majority for, it has been demonstrated …

SR: So was it just the government putting out a sloppily worded motion?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: No, no, no, I don't think so actually. In this heightened sense in these amazing political times of excitement or whatever, you can understand on a non-binding motion that people want to demonstrate they are still wanting to have their views heard.

SR: Now you talked a bit about divisions n Labour, there is clearly divisions in the Conservative benches as well, I just want to put to you what one of your Ministerial colleagues said in an interview this week. Now this is Richard Harrington, the Business Minister, and he said talking about the European Research Group: ‘I read that Nigel Farage is setting up a new party called Brexit and if I were them I’d be looking at that. In my view they are not Conservatives.’ Is he right?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: No, so I love Richard Harrington, he is one of the best Ministers, he is actually a Minister in the Department for Business and is helping me in the Brexit department, trying to coordinate our approach to no-deal and he is helping me tremendously but we both have, we all have one singular objective which is to get a negotiated deal so we don’t have to go down the path of no-deal whatsoever.

SR: How bad would no-deal be?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well it is sub-optimal, it is …

SR: What does that mean, sub-optimal?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: It means not optimal. [Laughs] Essentially a deal would be much better for the country, we could get to certainty quicker and it’s what businesses are asking for, employers in my constituency and across the country are asking for and I think I am with the people of Derby who were on your clip earlier, people just want this thing done, they want Brexit delivered, they want their voices heard and the referendum result delivered upon and that’s what we’re going to do.

SR: Now you have got into some hot water in the past …

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: No!

SR: … for writing to universities asking them for a list of the names of tutors who were teaching students about Brexit and what they were teaching them about. Now at the time your colleague Jo Johnson said it was because you were researching a book, so how’s the book coming on?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well I’m on the picture book now so I am ready to colour those in. No, I am …

SR: Is there a book?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: No, there isn’t a book. Well there might be a book one day but it won’t be about that. So I wrote to the universities because I am interested in Brexit. I was a member of the European Parliament for ten years, I formed the … I was Chairman of the European Research Group for six and a half, I formed the Fresh Start project about a renegotiation with our European partners. I was a whip at the time and I just wanted to find out what other people were saying about Brexit.

SR: But can you see why some people might have thought it was …

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well maybe English isn’t my top subject, maybe it was a clumsily worded letter but I actually just wanted – and most universities at the beginning took it in the light it was written and some asked what sort of stuff do you want and this is our reading list. I didn’t comment at the time because I was a whip and if I upset anybody I apologise.

SR: Okay, now just finally, Donald Trump has called on the UK to take back Islamic State fighters. Should the UK be taking them back?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: Well the government’s primary objective is to … Actually I don’t disagree with what Lord Dannatt said on your previous piece but the government’s primary objective is to make sure our region is safe and secure and we do have a statute book that can properly police that these people coming back, they will undoubtedly be talked to, possibly arrested and charged with various crimes, just updated and …

SR: But should they come back?

CHRIS HEATON-HARRIS: As international law stands they can come back. I don't think my constituents would be very comfortable with it.

SR: Okay, thank you very much, Chris Heaton-Harris.