Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Dominic Raab MP

Sunday 20 January 2019

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: A number of MPs are expected to table amendments in the House of Commons tomorrow that would effectively rule out a no-deal Brexit but others believe that no-deal is no big deal and one of them is the former Brexit Secretary, Dominic Raab, who joins us now from central London. It feels as if Parliament is really trying to take back control of the Brexit process, what do you make of the amendments that are apparently about to be laid down on suspending Article 50 and also trying to block no-deal?

DOMINIC RAAB: Well Parliament has already taken control in one sense, we triggered Article 50, that’s why we have been in these negotiations and it is set in law that we will leave the EU on the 29th March. It is certainly true that it would require legislation to reverse that position but that would almost certainly require the support that was left [inaudible] to the government and the Prime Minister seemed very clear on this. It is not quite true to say I support no-deal, I would like to see us go back to Brussels, look at the two crucial changes I have always argued for on the back of a best in class free trade movement and there is still a possibility that this deal could pass but I think the British public want this done and dusted and therefore we are leaving on the 29th March, that’s set in law and I think it is unlikely to be reversed. Perhaps the one helpful thing the Prime Minister could do is rule out extending Article 50, people need some closure, some finality, let’s get this done and move on.

SR: At the same time though it feels as if there is a movement in Westminster trying to rule out no-deal entirely. What do you think the consequences of that would be?

DOMINIC RAAB: Well look, I think it’s very difficult to do. We have seen some of the shenanigans over the weekend, an attempt to try and allow a super-minority, so less than half of MPs, to set the agenda in Parliament. I think that would be an extraordinarily undemocratic thing to do. I think as a reality check on this it is very difficult to do some of these colourful ideas that are being floated around and of course on the Remain side they are split. You have got Dominic Grieve arguing in the Sunday Times that the Norway option is a very poor deal and he doesn’t support that and equally I think there is much less support than is perhaps magnified in the media for a second referendum, that would just create even more uncertainty, we’d be back at square one. I don't think that’s what people want when they voted Leave or Remain and the Com Res poll in January showed very clearly that by two to one people want this referendum accepted and I think whether people voted Leave or Remain they want to have this done, they want us to move on, talk about the economy, public services. We won’t be able to do that until we have delivered Brexit so that’s what we should all go for.

SR: Liam Fox for example has said if the result of the referendum isn’t delivered on it will unleash a political tsunami, do you think he’s right?

DOMINIC RAAB: Sorry, I didn’t quite catch that, could you repeat it please?

SR: Liam Fox has written today saying failing to deliver on the referendum would unleash a political tsunami, do you think that’s right?

DOMINIC RAAB: I always try and choose my language very carefully but I think if there is an attempt to reverse the referendum, stop Brexit altogether, I think that will cut across not only the democratic mandate, the biggest in history that we’ve had but I think also if you look at current public opinion and how it’s shifted by two to one, as I said, people want us to respect the referendum, I think people understand that is a fundamental principle of the democracy that we’ve got and I don’t want to leave on WTO terms, I’d rather we got a deal but I don’t think we can let the EU hold us hostage and just stubbornly resist all reasonable changes so I think the Prime Minister is right to send the negotiators back to Brussels. I think actually one thing we should do now is rule out extending Article 50, give us some finality. I think the team in Brussels needs to change, don’t think for all the great work the civil servants have done I think to close this deal needs to be politically led and driven so taken into the control of the politicians because this is a deal that needs to be closed now but I think we should give it our best shot and if not, we’re leaving on the 29th March and we’ll make the best of it and people will then be able to move on. We’ll have the certainty, we’ll be able to manage the risk but also let us grasp the huge opportunities of Brexit and get on to talking about other things.

SR: You see you say you prefer to leave with a deal but at the same time you have been pretty scathing about the Prime Minister’s deal and you are asking for something that the EU is extremely unlikely to budge on, which is the removal of the backstop. The reality is, isn’t it, that by not supporting the Prime Minister’s deal you are effectively allowing other MPs to try and soften Brexit and potentially even stop Brexit altogether.

DOMINIC RAAB: That sounds like the spin the Whips were putting round before the vote but the reality is the vast … this is the biggest defeat on any vote in Parliamentary history so obviously the deal needs to be changed if it is going to get through and we should go back in good faith and keep the arm of friendship extended with our EU partners and neighbours and I think there is still an opportunity with Michel Barnier, Donald Tusk, we need to know now what the Brits need, what they want so let’s set that out but of course, if they are basically saying no, that they will not accept any changes in which we resolve the safety flaws in the deal that we put to Parliament, then we would leave on WTO terms at least as a transition, I think as an independent third country with absolute the terms of the negotiations reasonably simply and have stronger negotiating leverage but what we can’t allow is for them to call all the shots.

SR: One of the things that you have been pretty consistent in your criticism of is the backstop. It is a big deal for Brexiteers like yourself and also the DUP. Arlene Foster said this week ‘I don't think the Prime Minister even asked to get rid of the backstop’. Now you were Brexit Secretary of Trade during that part of the negotiations, so did you or the Prime Minister ask to get rid of the backstop?

DOMINIC RAAB: As you know from when I resigned, I had been struggling to persuade the Prime Minister that we would need an exit mechanism, that the right thing to do was to have that debate in public, I set out my views very clearly. I have made it clear since July that there is an opportunity to address this issue and that it would be necessary to put a good deal to the country but also, as a practical matter, to get it through parliament and ….

SR: Did you ask the EU?

DOMINIC RAAB: Oh of course, I raised it in July with Michel Barnier who accepted then that the backstop would have to be short. Unfortunately I think after that we didn’t follow up and I argued very strongly that we should do, we should have been resolute on this point and look, it’s late in the day now but we should go back and have that argument and make it clear now – because I think we need to focus the EU minds, I’m not sure it will be enough to get the changes we need but there is some focusing of EU minds about the consequences of leaving on WTO terms, it’s not the optimum solution, the optimum solution is a deal but what we can’t allow is for them to blackmail us into a bad deal.

SR: So you talked about some of the consequences of leaving on WTO terms and you said that no-deal would have some short-term risks, what are those risk? Can you spell it out because people are worried?

DOMINIC RAAB: Well there are a range of risks and I set that out over the summer with a speech. There is the risk of course that we would have friction at the border. In fairness, the French authorities including the Deputy Mayor of Calais, have reacted very robustly and said no, we’re going to keep the trade flowing because we don’t want to lose that vital business to the Belgian ports and the Dutch ports. There are also issues, there is an issue in the media at the moment about the insecurity of supply of medicines but Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, has said he has got the preparations and the plans in place and of course, Brexit aside, we already have been stockpiling hundreds of medicines each year because of the risk to the supply route. So I think there are some short-term risks, say three to six months, but they are manageable. The advantage of course, if we did end up leaving on WTO terms, and I’ve said that’s not my preferred outcome, is we would immediately seize the opportunities to take back control over our laws, our borders, to have an independent free trade, global free trade policy around the world and I think for the public Brexit will be delivered, we could move on and I think whether you voted Leave or Remain, I think there is a huge appetite for us just to get on and deliver this now.

SR: Now you gave a pretty wide-ranging speech, you touched on lots of subjects, Brexit of course, improving competition, energy markets, tax rates, shareholder power – if it looks like a leadership pitch and it smells like a leadership pitch, it is a leadership pitch, right?

DOMINIC RAAB: No, what I’m trying to do is for me I think we talk so much about the gloom and doom about the risks and the downside of Brexit, we have lost the vision, we’ve lost the optimism. The hope that fired up 17 million people plus to vote for the biggest democratic mandate in our history, what I wanted to set out was who a positive optimistic post-Brexit vision for the UK, it’s for the consumers who get cheaper prices, it’s for the workers because of the growth markets of the future from South America to Asia and I also said we should take some domestic decisions like cutting national insurance for workers on the lowest and middle incomes and I think if we had a positive vision for Brexit, not just taking it as some kind of accountant’s risk management exercise, I think that people would have more confidence in the direction to where we’re heading.

SR: Okay, so definitely not a leadership pitch then, that’s come through loud and clear. Do you think Theresa May will still be Prime Minister next Christmas?

DOMINIC RAAB: Look, I don't know what’s going to happen. I want to support this Prime Minister in getting Brexit over the line, I think we’ve got a massive decision ahead of us and I think your viewers would think it was self-indulgent for anyone to be focusing on any of that stuff now. I think we have got limited time so let’s put ourselves in the best position both in terms of a negotiated deal but also if the EU resist all reasonable offers, the WTO transition. If we do that we’ll be in a good place and we can worry about all the rest of that stuff after that.

SR: I don't think anyone would argue with you that you have got limited time left. One MP said to me this week that there is the potential for a deal to be done but Theresa May is possibly the worst person to try and get that deal done. do you think she has got the skills to be able to bring enough MPs together to get behind her Brexit deal?

DOMINIC RAAB: I don't think the government as a whole, and the Prime Minister must be part of that, needs to listen more. We have walked in, the government has walked in to the biggest Parliamentary defeat in history and it was something that wasn’t just predicted – I gave that advice, it was given by others inside the Cabinet and amongst the ranks of MPs – but it is all very easy to gloat. It is a difficult situation, people have different views on all sides so I think the best thing now is to keep it relatively simple. The legislation is there so we will leave on the 29th March unless it’s reversed and that can’t be done without the Prime Minister’s decision so I think she has got to go back and I think actually this defeat puts her in a position to go back to Brussels and say look, Parliament is not going to accept this deal, we are asking for two changes, they are reasonably straightforward, other people asked for more but I convinced them that two changes would get the deal through and if you don’t want that then you need to recognise your part in the UK leaving without a deal with you and on WTO terms. This deal is still salvageable and I think come what may we’ll make a success of Brexit but we do need a bit of vision, a bit of optimism and we need to be absolutely resolute from hereon in with our EU partners.

SR: Okay, Dominic Raab, thank you very much.

DOMINIC RAAB: Thank you.