Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with James Cleverly MP

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Now it’s going to be another crunch week for the government, the Prime Minister needs to sell her Brexit plan to both her own Cabinet and then to the European leaders, a job made all the harder by the calls from David Davis for Cabinet members to rebel. Well joining us now is the party’s Deputy Chairman, James Cleverly. Thanks very much for being with us this morning. We just mentioned there the former Brexit Secretary calling on members of the Cabinet to assert their collective responsibility and effectively mutiny against the Chequers deal. Now you are a Brexit supporting member of the government so are you going to heed his call.

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well I am not a member of the government so my position is a party position, in the party.

SR: But you are the kind of person he had in mind.

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well possibly, I don't know but the kind of people who are sitting around the Cabinet table have got a fantastic position to put their ideas across, to influence the direction of government, that’s what Cabinet decision making is all about. They have got the ear of the Prime Minister and the lead negotiator in terms of Dominic Raab, so they should use that position to put their ideas forward and I would suggest it is a much more constructive and helpful way of influencing the direction of the negotiations with the EU.

SR: So what direction would you like them to influence it in?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well I think the Prime Minister’s position is clear and unambiguous and as someone that campaigned passionately for Brexit, I’m very comfortable with which is that we want a deal, we do want a deal that is good for us and that will be good for the EU but we want a deal that sees the integrity of the United Kingdom maintained and that means no carving off Northern Ireland away from the rest of the United Kingdom. We are a single country and we will negotiate in that but of course we do want a pragmatic, trading security, social relationship with our closest friends in the world.

SR: You are very loyally standing by Theresa May there, I mean you swallowed Chequers, some of the concern now is about this proposed backstop plan which would effectively see the UK remaining in a customs union. Are you worried about that, could you accept that?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well there is a lot of speculation and a lot of people getting very hot under the collar about what they think might be the next …

SR: Well the Brexit Secretary has been talking about it this week hasn’t he?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well the point the Prime Minister has made is that we have certain red lines and one of them is that we are not going to stay indefinitely in a customs union. The other is that we are not going to see Northern Ireland carved off from the rest of the United Kingdom. These are things that I campaigned on, things I am very comfortable with and things I know she is seeking to deliver in our negotiations.

SR: You say it is a red line that we don’t remain indefinitely in the customs union but that is pretty woolly. I mean that just means it is not going to last forever, as a Brexiteer surely you need a bit more reassurance than that?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well my position and one of the reasons why I campaigned for Brexit, as did lots of people, is I think we have fantastic opportunities to engage more broadly with the world. I am half Sierra Leonean, I have got friends and family in West Africa and they were incredibly pleased to see the Prime Minister engaging with Africa on her recent visit. There are some fantastic opportunities to trade with mature democracies, sorry mature economies and emerging economies and we absolutely have to be free to take advantage of those relationships. They take time to put in place and as long as we are able to sign and implement those trade deals as they come on stream, then I think the precise timing of how long we are in a temporary customs arrangement is something that can be up for debate as long as when those arrangements come on stream – and they won’t be instant, pretty quick but not instant – we are in a position to take advantage of them.

SR: Okay, now I want to talk to you about Universal Credit. I was talking to Iain Duncan Smith about it earlier in the programme and this week the Work and Pensions Secretary, Esther McVey, admitted that some people will be worse off because of Universal Credit, the Resolution Foundation saying nearly a million working families could be losing more than £2000 a year. I mean is the Conservative party at risk of turning into the nasty party again?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well I saw, not all because we’re in and out of make-up.

SR: Don’t reveal all the tricks!

JAMES CLEVERLY: But I saw some of what Iain was saying about the foundation of Universal Credit and he is absolutely right. Any benefits system is going to be complicated, it’s going to be expensive and it’s going to be something that needs to be delicately handled. That is a universal truth about all benefits situations. The benefits regime that we had before Universal Credit was cumbersome, it was complicated, it was Byzantine, it encouraged almost errors and when those errors were made in good faith by the recipient as happened, there was claw back throwing people into a really difficult place, disincentivising work, it was not a good system. Universal Credit is an infinitely better system but, and the point that Iain made, it needs to be well-resourced, which is why I am very pleased that the government has committed to three billion in terms of the implementation for the next phase of Universal Credit. We have seen people getting into work, which is one of the real underpinnings of Universal Credit, in record numbers and the people who can’t …

SR: But you can’t just say that’s all down to Universal Credit.

JAMES CLEVERLY: No, absolutely, it’s not all down to Universal Credit but the whole point of Universal Credit was that it incentivised people going into work, so they felt confident that if they took a job or a better job or more hours or a pay rise, that it would always make financial sense to them and actually …

SR: So would you like to see more money in the budget then for it?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well we need to make it work, the government has committed money to make sure the roll out of Universal Credit is effective. There was always that pause and review system built in so that any difficulties in implementation – and we recognise there are always going to be difficulties – could be addressed, resolved and we move forward. An important thing, and it is right that you called Labour out on this, they have no credible alternative plan.

SR: Well some people would argue that the actual policy is the important thing rather than the opposition’s perspective. I am also keen to talk to your brief as the Conservative party chairman. Very briefly, Godfrey Bloom, is he a member of the Conservative party?

JAMES CLEVERLY: No, no he’s not.

SR: Okay, that was a very simple response, thank you. Now there is a report by Conservative Home that I wondered if you were slightly more concerned about, that you are struggling to recruit good candidates in key margin seats, Wirral West apparently is so dissatisfied with the people put forward that they have asked you to reopen applications again. I mean are you are actually on an election footing?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Well we are building towards an election footing. We have made absolutely clear that the changes that we are putting through in Central Office, initiated by Sir Patrick McLaughlin, continued by Brandon Lewis who obviously is my boss, that these are a long term reform programme to make sure that the Conservative election winning machine is just that, it’s an election winning machine but we always said that that was going to take time if we are going to do it properly. The people that we’re asking to put themselves forward for tough marginal constituencies, these are jobs, these are candidates that are going to have to work those constituencies for a number of years. Now we recognise that that imposes a degree of pressure, it is a long commitment, not everyone can put themselves forward for that. We have some outstanding, genuinely outstanding people on the candidates list and we want to see them get selected and ultimately elected.

SR: So can you rule out an election if the deal is voted down?

JAMES CLEVERLY: My job at Central Office is to make sure we are ready to fight elections – that is local government elections, regional government elections, police and crime commissioner elections and the general election when it comes. That’s what we’re working to and we’re going to make sure we are ready to fight any elections that come over the next few years.

SR: Okay, now some people see your role as trying to shake off the slightly stuffy image perhaps that the Conservative party has, you are very vocal on Twitter for example, so in that spirit I thought that we could end with a bit of a quick fire round and see how you go.

JAMES CLEVERLY: Quick fire quizzes have always been my undoing.

SR: Football or rugby?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Rugby.

SR: Stormzy or Stormy Daniels?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Stormzy! My wife got a selfie with Stormzy.

SR: Oh really. Trump or Obama?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Obama.

SR: Obama, interesting. Canada or Norway?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Canada.

SR: Full English or Continental breakfast?

JAMES CLEVERLY: What do you think? This is the stomach of a full English breakfast man.

SR: Merkel or Macron?

JAMES CLEVERLY: Oh! I admire them both, they have both got a really difficult one but I think instinctively Angela Merkel because she’s had to deal with a considerably more challenging situation in terms of binding that country together in some difficult times.

SR: Well I think you came through that relatively unscathed.

JAMES CLEVERLY: We’ll see.

SR: Perhaps we’ll see, we’ll see what the reaction is. James Cleverly, thank you.

JAMES CLEVERLY: Thank you.