Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with John Healey MP Shadow Housing Minister

Sunday 17 June 2018

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: Now an extra £20 billion a year for the NHS by 2024, it sounds like a lot of money but Labour say it’s still not enough. Joining us now is the Shadow Housing Secretary, John Healey, thank you very much for being with us in the studio today.

JOHN HEALEY: Good morning.

SR: It sounds like a good thing doesn’t it, more money for the NHS? Why isn’t Labour welcoming it?

JOHN HEALEY: Well any boost to funding for the NS is welcome after eight years of the tightest funding the NHS has seen in its history but we’ve got to get a bit of perspective on this. The promised 3.4% per year is less than the NHS has had on average every year since it was set up in 1948, it’s barely half the level of funding it got each year over the 13 years of Labour and, most seriously, this isn’t a pledge that is credible if the Prime Minister can’t show how it’s being funded and obviously some bogus Brexit dividend is clearly something that doesn’t exist and she is only saying this because she’s got her arm twisted up her back by her Cabinet Brexit hardliners.

SR: Well let’s talk about the figures shall we? The Conservatives, as you say, say they want 3.4% more a year so what is Labour promising?

JOHN HEALEY: Well if Labour had been elected this time last year of course we’d have seen a nine billion emergency boost to the NHS and to social care to deal with the crisis.

SR: 2%, that’s what Labour promised.

JOHN HEALEY: No, at the election we were promising a £9 billion first year boost for the NHS and social care. Look, Labour is always …

SR: The Conservatives are promising £20 billion a year by 2024. Look you can argue about saying they’re not funding it and they are pulling it out of this new Brexit dividend that you’ve claimed doesn’t exist but they are still promising more than you aren’t they? Have I got that right?

JOHN HEALEY: I think they’re not, I think they’re not. We promised a nine billion boost immediately after the election and Labour’s always done right by the NHS and …

SR: So you’re saying you’ll be promising more next time round?

JOHN HEALEY: In the last 13 years when we had Labour in government we had rises each year above inflation of almost 6%. That’s why at the end of 2010 when Labour’s legacy to the country on the NHS was the shortest waits and the highest satisfaction on record.

SR: You’re keen to talk about what happened previously but when you look at the numbers, the Conservatives are promising 3.4% a year more for the NHS, Labour are promising 2% more.

JOHN HEALEY: Let’s see the detail of exactly what’s promised, let’s see the detail of what’s been left out and, above all, let’s see where the money is going to come from. I’d say to Theresa May just be honest with people, be honest that after eight years this is a Conservative made crisis in the NHS, be honest that this is simply not enough for the NHS to improve as all the experts say and, above all, any bogus Brexit dividend is simply not credible so tell us clearly how you’re going to pay for it and what you’re going to do with it.

SR: So why don’t you be honest now and say okay, the Conservatives are promising more but we don’t believe their figures? They are promising more than you aren’t they?

JOHN HEALEY: They’re promising more, we were promising a nine billion boost for this first year and we will challenge hard the basis of this pledge because quite honestly no pledge is serious unless a government can show how they would pay for it and where the money is going. That’s what we did at the last general election, not just the promise for the NHS, the promise for social care but also independently audited by the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

SR: Okay, now I’m very pleased you’re here today because I am keen to talk about housing. It feels to me there is a bit of a crisis happening in housing, one in three millennials expected to never own their own home, rough sleeping doubled, what’s the big idea from Labour because it does feel as if we need some big ideas here?

JOHN HEALEY: Well I think whether it’s on housing or the NHS, universal credit, schools, you see the same pattern really. You see after eight years government ministers in denial about the problems their policies are causing …

SR: Let’s not talk about the Conservatives, let’s talk about Labour, what are you planning on doing? Because I think that’s what people want to hear.

JOHN HEALEY: Because it means they’re too late to act, they’re too late to act and intervene where it’s required and they only ever act at all when they’re under pressure. Now in housing that’s true in spades. What’s clear is that this is a crisis for many people about affordability, people priced out of the housing market by housing policy and so our big plan for housing is really based on the premise that Conservative ministers talk about big house building targets but for those facing the housing crisis, this can only help in the very long term because it’s only in the very long term you can influence prices. So we’ve got to build more affordable homes if we want to make homes more affordable, so Labour’s set out this plan, out for consultation, we will over ten years build a million new genuinely affordable homes, we’ll redefine what counts as affordable because it is badly mistrusted by the people now because it’s been misused by government ministers and we would link that to incomes, not to the market.

SR: I’m getting a little bit of a sense of déjà vu here because we are always being promised more affordable new homes, David Cameron for example in 2016, nothing more important than ensuring hard working people can buy affordable homes; Gordon Brown in 2007, putting affordable housing within the reach not just of the few but of the many is vital. I mean why should we believe you because we’ve heard this so many times before?

JOHN HEALEY: Well this is where I think you can look to large parts of the Labour record over 13 years, two million new homes built, a million more home owners and the biggest social investment programme in social housing for a generation and you can look at the last eight years – and this is where the problems really lie because home ownership, which is all David Cameron ever talked about, is at a 30 year low, there are a million fewer under 45s now that own their home than they did even in 2010, so we’ve got to step in to deal with what we’ve seen over eight years, failure on all fronts – rising homelessness, falling home ownership and now the lowest level of new social rented homes on record. That’s what our plan is designed to do, to give some people some hope that actually this housing crisis can be tackled.

SR: So you want all these new houses, are you happy to see house prices go down? Is that a good thing

JOHN HEALEY: The market will do what it will with the housing.

SR: So you’d be relaxed would you, if house prices were going down?

JOHN HEALEY: No, the big mistake, the big mistake is to believe that simply building more homes will affect prices in anything other than the long run.

SR: But in the long run would you be happy for house prices to go down?

JOHN HEALEY: No, what we … No, my big difference with the Tories is this: what we build and who it’s for is just as important as how many new homes we build and if we want more affordable homes we have to build more affordable homes because the market’s failing and …

SR: I’m asking what’s your position? Are you happy for house prices to go down? A lot of people would think it would be great if house prices went down a bit.

JOHN HEALEY: My single focus is what the government can do and what it can do in the future and that’s the extent of a very detailed plan that we’ve laid out, quite unusual at this stage in a parliament which could be another four years before the general election, but this is about winning hearts and minds, it’s about building a consensus behind the steps that are required to give people that chance both of owning and of renting a home that they can afford in the future.

SR: Okay. Now I’m keen to ask you about Brexit, it seems we can’t get through an interview at the minute without asking about Brexit. I’m still slightly confused about what Labour’s position is on immigration because it feels like there were three different ways the Labour party voted on last week. Some people voted to stay in the single market, which would mean free movement of people, some people voted against, some people abstained, so what is it? Free movement, is it going to end, do you want it to end?

JOHN HEALEY: You’re right about Brexit, this is like Groundhog Day with this government. We’ve had nearly two years of Theresa May being …

SR: Come on, let’s talk about Labour, let’s not talk about the Conservatives all the time.

JOHN HEALEY: But the bigger picture is what’s happening in government, a warring Cabinet that’s held her hostage for two years, which means we’ve got a Prime Minister who is too weak to do the deal needed with Brussels. Now as far as Labour goes, yes of course there are differences in the Labour party, just like there are differences of view in the country but on the vote you are talking about last week, the vast majority of Labour MPs agreed with the view that the model of Norway is simply no good for Britain, it doesn’t end freedom of movement, it doesn’t allow us to negotiate a customs union with the EU, it doesn’t get over the problem of the hard border in Northern Ireland and, above all, it also leaves us with next to no say about the laws and rules we would have to follow from the European Union.

SR: So you said just then in that answer is that it doesn’t work because one of the things is it wouldn’t end free movement of people, so does Labour want immigration to go down then?

JOHN HEALEY: We want a jobs first Brexit. Now what that means is we …

SR: I know you are …

JOHN HEALEY: No, no, no, you asked me what Labour wants and …

SR: On free movement and immigration.

JOHN HEALEY: Yes, we said in our manifesto freedom of movement would end with Brexit and we are due to Brexit in eight months’ time but more importantly and alongside that, a Customs Union with the EU which is the best way to ensure no extra tariffs and safeguard our manufacturing and the fullest possible access to the single market and we accept, unlike the government, that that does mean common consumer standards, common protections for the environment and for workers and consumers and some shared institutions and regulations to make that work. That’s the basis of the deal that could be done if Theresa May wasn’t locked in place by the hard liners in her Cabinet and her party. They are letting the country down and that’s why also the vote this week about parliament being able to step in if she fails to get a good deal that can command support of MPs or on any deal at all, parliament has got to be able to step in, has got to be able to have a say in what happens next and direct the government, where needed, because that commonly happens in other countries and it should happen here too.

SR: Now before you go, I’m quite interested to get your answer on this last question. Back in 2016 after Jeremy Corbyn had been re-elected as leader of the Labour party, you call for a return to Shadow Cabinet elections. Would you like to do that?

JOHN HEALEY: Personally I would because I topped the poll the last time that we had them! But we’ve got a system where the Leader selects their Shadow Cabinet when we’re in opposition, just like the Prime Minister does when we’re in government so look, I’ll work within the system we’ve got at the moment, I’ll do my best to make the arguments that actually we can solve the housing crisis but it requires much bigger responsibility from government and it requires government to stop outsourcing responsibility for the homes we need to the private sector.

SR: Okay, John Healey, thanks very much indeed.