Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with John McDonnell Labour Shadow Chancellor

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: After months of pressure from party members and some MPs, the Labour leadership this week finally backed a second Brexit referendum. The party’s Shadow Chancellor is John McDonnell and he joins us now from Hayes in West London, thank you very much for being on the programme this morning.

JOHN McDONNELL: Morning.

SR: So it feels like this was the week that Labour really picked a side, pushing for a second Brexit referendum. You’re speaking to us from your constituency, Hayes, which voted to leave so my question to you is why should your constituents who voted out at the referendum have the confidence to vote in other elections if they feel their votes are just ignored?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well remember what we are doing at the moment is abiding by first of all our manifesto commitment. We said we’d respect the referendum but we also said that we wouldn’t allow Theresa May to take us out of Europe with a reckless deal and we would not support no-deal so what we’re doing is exactly what our party conference unanimously decided. We are still arguing for our proposal which is a deal we think can protect jobs and the economy and we are still arguing that if that doesn’t go through we should have a general election but we recognise that if we have to, to block no-deal and to block a bad deal we’ll have to go back to the people themselves and with my constituents I think they’ll understand. That’s because we can’t allow a no-deal or a bad deal to go through, that will affect jobs and undermine our economy but we’ve been forced into this by Theresa May delaying, running down the clock and not coming up with a compromise that we could all support.

SR: I know that you’re saying that this is the natural progression from that conference motion but at the same time you are now pushing for a second referendum, you want to put down an amendment in Parliament for MPs to actually vote for so you have come on a bit of a journey on this haven’t you because in 2016 you said in a speech that Labour must not push for a second vote, to do so would put us against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites. I mean the real thing that’s changed here is MPs defecting to join The Independent Group isn’t it? Has that had any bearing on your decision at all?

JOHN McDONNELL: No, no, we’ve been straight with people, we’ve been forced into a situation by Theresa May. For two years she’s delayed and delayed and delayed, running down the clock. She’s now presented us with a deal that can’t be supported because it will have such dire constituents both for my constituents and for the jobs of the people right the way across the country, we can’t support that. We certainly can’t support no-deal which could be catastrophic so therefore we’re saying that we’ve got a deal that could protect jobs and the economy which we saw only two weeks ago the European Union representatives were keen to negotiate with us on so therefore we’ll still be pushing for that but we respect the view that if we can’t get that, well we will have to break the log jam by going back to the people. It’s not what we want but it’s what we’ve been forced into.

SR: You say that you’ve been forced into it but I just wonder, you’re someone who looks at these things all the time but I just wonder what impact this will have on the next election because if you look at the hard facts from the last election you had, of the 45 seats in England and Wales that Labour needs to win to get a majority 35 voted leave and 16 of Labour’s 20 most vulnerable seats also backed Brexit, so by trying to keep the membership together, to keep the party together, are you throwing away the next election?

JOHN McDONNELL: Do you know, there’s something beyond electoral calculations and that’s the interest of the country, it’s people with jobs, it’s their livelihoods, it’s the long-term future of our economy and as politicians now I think we have to stand up and put the interests of the country first. Actually yes, you can look at party advantage but that isn’t where we’re at the moment, where we’re at …

SR: So it could cause you more harm?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well it well be but we’ve got to be honest with people. You know, people have had enough of politicians who say one thing and actually do another, what we’re saying is that we said we’d respect the referendum but we also said we can’t allow a reckless Brexit the way Theresa May is [bringing it forward], we can’t allow no-deal because there are such dire consequences for us all in the long-term future and we’ve got to be honest with people about that. I think electoral calculation goes out the window now, we’ve got to look for the long-term interests of our country and our people.

SR: So it’s that important, are you going to be whipping Labour MPs when you do put forward this amendment on the second referendum and what happens if any Shadow Ministers break that whip? Are they going to be sacked?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well normally we will whip and that will be decided in the normal way by the Chief Whip and the Shadow Cabinet and the party overall. I’m sure I think on this we would see a whip but also you have got to respect people’s views and their constituency interest as well and the whole whipping arrangement will be determined in discussion in due course but I just have to say this, I think it will be for MPs right the way across the House in all parties now that they have got to look to the long-term interests of the country, they have got to protect people’s jobs, they’ve got to protect the economy otherwise we’ll never be forgiven in the future. If we vote for something which will damage our long-term future I think people will look back and say where were you when we needed you?

SR: So does the entire front bench, Labour front bench, need to support this policy then?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well there’ll be discussions in Shadow Cabinet and in the normal way we’ll come to a conclusion on the exact wording of whatever amendment is put up and you’d expect the front bench to support it but as I say, you know, we’ve got to respect people’s views on this. They come from different areas, different constituencies and they will be listening to their own constituents and, you know, it’s one of those issues where you have seen already right the way across the House that all the different political parties, there are views being expressed which are expressed honestly and validly that we have got to respect as well.

SR: Now there’s a big People’s Vote march on 23rd March, we spoke to them this week and they said they would love to have you there, they’d love to give you a speaking slot. Now that you’re throwing your weight behind the second referendum are you going to be out there marching?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I’ll think about it, certainly! I’m not one to miss a good march but I also have to say as well that I don’t want to do anything or say anything that disrespects the people who strongly, in my own constituency and elsewhere, supported leave and I don’t want to do anything that offends them because what I’m trying to do now – there’s a thing that Gordon Brown said a few weeks ago, you know, we should be setting up meetings and discussions where we bring the country back together again and that’s one of the things I’ve been doing in my own area where I am speaking to get to explain exactly the situation we’re in, some of the compromises that we can all reach because at the end of the day, I think we will have to unite on the basis of a very British compromise.

SR: Okay, well we’ll look forward to you starting work on your speech next week in that case. Now I am interested to talk to you as well about another row that’s been brewing in Labour for some time now and that’s around allegations of anti-Semitism and the party’s handling of it. So my question to you is does the Labour party have a problem with anti-Semitism?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well we clearly do, yes, we clearly do. Look, these allegations that the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic I reject completely but clearly we do and we’ve accepted that. It might be that the figures that we’ve got – and you interviewed Barry Gardiner last week and he took you through the figures, so it’s 0.1% of our membership seem to have been involved in some form of anti-Semitism. It’s a tiny number but it’s still a problem, I do not want one anti-Semite in our party, I do not want one piece of evidence of someone being anti-Semitic. We’ve got to eradicate it from our party because our party has got to be in the lead with others in eradicating it from our society.

SR: So you say there is clearly a problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour party even though you want to, of course, put that in context but I just wonder if everyone does agree with you on that because it feels to me that some members of the Labour party don’t accept there is a problem with anti-Semitism. We had for example Labour members cheering Chris Williamson when he said that Labour has been too apologetic about anti-Semitism and yet in the newspapers today Joan Ryan, someone who has left the Labour party, shared a letter that was sent to her constituency office which said stop telling lies about Jeremy Corbyn, he’s a decent man, you need to be shoved right back in the ovens. I mean Jeremy Corbyn is the leader, does he need to do more here?

JOHN McDONNELL: We’re all doing a lot more. I’m sorry that Joan Ryan has left, I really am, I think it was a mistake, I would rather she stayed within the party and helped us tackle this issue. Where there seems to be some disagreements in some of these meetings that are taking place is where people are saying the Labour party is institutionally anti-Semitic, institutionally racist. I reject that completely but we have got a problem and we’ve accepted that and Jeremy has said time and time again there is an issue, there is a real problem that we have got to address and are addressing and that’s what we’re doing. I said time and time again, and I’ve said this, we’ve got to be quicker. In my own view in some instances I think we’ve got to be more ruthless, more severe and we’re doing that and we’ve invited – where there’s been criticism of process, and I’ve been one of those critics, strong critics, where we’ve had criticisms of the process, we’ve invited Lord Faulkner, a former Attorney General, to come in and give us advice on those processes and I believe he is meeting next week to decide how he proceeds with that, the terms of reference and in that way we can overcome some of the criticisms that we’re encountering at the moment but do you know, we’ve been completely open and transparent about this and in that way sunlight I think will be the way that we eradicate and address this problem effectively. I’m hoping that we’ll be a model for other political parties about how they address similar problems within their own parties and a model for the rest of society. I listened to Rabbi Jennifer Krausner last week when she did a Thought for the Day and she talked through how, when you have committed an offence you recognise it, you apologise for it but of course you make sure that you address that issue, you atone for it, you change your behaviour. I think collectively if the Labour party in that spirit that is deep within Judaism, that’s the sort of process we need to go through and I think that’s what we’ve started out on that path and I want to be in time really proud that we’ve become a beacon of light of how we address this problem.

SR: I was quite struck this week by what I thought was actually a very good video produced by Momentum, trying to address some of the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that we sometimes see online and also in life as well and it was effectively trying to say that some people on the left are perhaps more susceptible to some of these. It says that these sort of racist tropes effectively aim to take a basic concern about inequality and justice in the world and turn that into a hatred of Jews. Do you think that some on the left have a bit of a blind spot when it does come to racism against Jews?

JOHN McDONNELL: There’s blind spots on left and right and the right have been virulently, violently anti-Semitic in our community but yes, there is an issue on the left and I met the people who produced that video, my friend Harry, they did a fantastic job and I retweeted it with a comment saying this was the sort of material that we need to putting out because people will learn from it. And do you know, I was attacked for retweeting that video but actually I think it was spot on because it was produced by Momentum and what they’re doing, this is what’s happening in the Labour party as well, is saying look, there’s a lot of ignorance about anti-Semitism in our society, its history, how it goes back centuries within our society. We were the first country that expelled all Jews from this country in the Medieval period and if you look at what’s happened right the way across Europe, the pogroms etc, it is deep within our society and unless we understand its history and its incidences we will not be able to eradicate it so that video, it was a short video, I thought really well done. It just demonstrated the levels of conspiracy theories that go around and associate with anti-Semitism that we should all learn from and how you should understand some of the language that has been used as well. You know, we’ve gone through it in other communities as well where we’ve learnt those lessons and we’ve got to relearn that lesson about anti-Semitism as well.

SR: So why do you think then that people who buy into some of these historic conspiracy theories are joining Labour now?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well we’ve expanded to over half a million members so we’re a much bigger party now and so will reflect the rest of society. What that means is, if we reflect the whole of society, we will also reflect some of the elements within society that we find, well just intolerable so in that way you’ve always got to be in a situation where whatever organisation you’re in …

SR: But some are being drawn to Labour.

JOHN McDONNELL: No, I think it’s across all parties. If you look at the recent reports about the extent of anti-Semitism, actually in recent reports it says it is actually more within the right than it is on the left but I’m not interested in arguing that point because I want to ensure that we in the Labour party, as a mass movement now, anti-Semitism is eradicated – no matter how small it is, even if there is one anti-Semite it doesn’t matter, it’s still offensive and we’ve got to eradicate it and we will. We’re on that path and we’re learning, well we are learning some hard lessons about how you do it as well but at the end of the day, as I say, we’ll learn these lessons, we’ll eradicate anti-Semitism in the Labour party, we’ll play our role within society and I’ll be proud we’ve done it.

SR: Just finally, I wanted to talk to you about the Deputy Leader, Tom Watson, who has decided to try and set up what he’s referring to as a social democratic group of Labour backbenchers to try and look at different policies, to broaden the party’s appeal. Is that a party within a party?

JOHN McDONNELL: No, no. Look we have different groups within the Labour party, we have the Socialist Campaign which I used to chair, we have the Tribune Group, Progress and so Tom is bringing other people together. He has a perfect right to do that, that’s fair enough and we need as much policy debate as we possibly can, I welcome that. We are a broad church and let’s welcome that. You know, Jeremy Corbyn has launched this whole series of seminars and discussions in the Parliamentary Labour Party because he is saying, look, we have got to be prepared for the next election, we’ve got to be ready to produce a new manifesto so he’s organising a whole series of discussion groups and bringing the Parliamentary Labour Party and also, of course, our party membership so no, I welcome what Tom is doing, I welcome the discussions that are taking place across all those different groups. We’re a broad church and do you know, when it comes down to it, when it comes down to a general election as we did last time, we unite around – well last time it was a radical manifesto that was incredibly successful and we’ll do that again and Tom will play his part.

SR: Okay, John McDonnell, thank you very much for being on the programme.

JOHN McDONNELL: Thanks a lot.