Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Justine Greening Former Education Secretary

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: Well one person with a strong view on the state of the Conservatives in south-west London and beyond is the former Education Secretary and MP for Putney, Justine Greening. Welcome, thanks for being on the show.

JUSTINE GREENING: And welcome back Sophy.

SR: Thank you. I just wanted to pick up on what some of the people were saying when I went to Wandsworth because the Conservatives, it feels as if some people feel they did better than expected in the local elections but you still ended up losing seats. That first gentleman that I spoke to who said that he likes Wandsworth council, he voted Conservative locally but he is going to see what happens on Brexit, he’s not sure about the Conservatives nationally. I mean you do have some problems don’t you?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think his comments show how pragmatic voters are, they really do see through a lot of the spin to something that is much more practical about what will voting mean for me? In his case he knows he has got a good local council that’s got low council tax but very good services and that was a package that people wanted to stay voting for but, quite rightly, he sees that as different from who he might want to support at the next election and you spoke to a Labour voter who is in a similar position, where he said I’ve always voted Labour but I really have asked myself, after the Russia, the Skripal scandal where people feel Corbyn is really weak on that, he said I really don’t know whether I could ever practically vote to put him into Downing Street and I think what it shows is people are very pragmatic but they also want to see centre ground politics come back in our country and that’s something that maybe they feel has slightly gone and the Brexit debate feeling like it’s polarising public opinion when actually what people want to see is our politicians working together for people and it being less about the politics and a bit more about them.

SR: Labour ran you pretty close in Wandsworth, are you worried about your own seat at the next election?

JUSTINE GREENING: I just do my very best for my local community and then it’s up to them who they want representing them at the next election but I do think, I won that seat from Labour in 2005 and actually the political climate then wasn’t a million miles away from where it is now, people disenchanted with Labour at the time but not really feeling like the Conservatives were necessarily a good alternative, so I think you win by being in the centre ground but I think the London Conservatives, we had a very modern open outlook, a liberal outlook and I think it’s just modern politics about delivery on the ground for people and taking their priorities as a local community, making them ours and then backing that up with a record of delivery day to day that people could see for themselves, that’s why they kept it.

SR: Is that where you think the Conservative party is at the moment then, in the centre ground, this open politics that you’re talking about?

JUSTINE GREENING: I don't think that people necessarily feel that, I think people feel we have gone more towards the right than perhaps we had under David Cameron for example.

SR: Is that a mistake do you think?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think you win elections by having a broad coalition of support for you as a party. I think the last time we won an election with any massive majority, it was in 1987 and we have got to be a party that really connects, not just we have people think about a government that runs Britain in their interests but have a feel about our country and in terms of where we go on Brexit, I think my experience talking to people on the doorstep is they want us to get through Brexit and they want us to get onto what’s the kind of country we’re trying to build after Brexit. This perpetual preoccupation with Brexit is perhaps understandable but I think they see politicians as really obsessing over that when what they want is for the political class to really start focusing on what’s after and what are we going to do about the issues that drove the Brexit vote in the first place, for example the fact that people growing up in very different parts of the country seem to have very different chances of reaching their potential and having opportunity.

SR: On that point, you went to a comprehensive school in Rotherham, you were the first person in your family to go to university, do you think the Conservatives are doing enough to speak to those 18 year old aspirational kids in Rotherham?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think we do need to do more. We have got a good message with them, we’ve always been the party that stands for equality of opportunity. The challenge we’ve got as a country is that’s never been the case in practice and we now need to ask ourselves as a party and ask ourselves as a country, what is it going to take to make sure that it doesn’t matter where you’re growing up, it doesn’t matter what your circumstances are, you can have an equal shot at opportunity. We can’t have a closed shop when it comes to opportunity, people still feel like it’s connections that matter more than your talent, more than your competence and we’ve got to change that but it needs to be the Conservative party that’s really leading the charge on showing how we can do that practically in modern Britain.

SR: So to coin a phrase, is it time to take back control of the Conservative party from the centre ground, people like you?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think people want to hear pragmatic voices in the Conservative party that aren’t ideologically driven but are focused on putting people first, not the politics.

SR: Now I want to move on to Brexit, because you told my colleague, Faisal Islam, earlier this week, that certain pro-Brexit Conservative MPs are acting like Russia on the UN Security Council, vetoing everything that they don’t like. What did you mean by that?

JUSTINE GREENING: What I mean is that in the end there’s going to need to be give and take and the voices that we tend to hear in Brexit are passionate, understandably, but they tend to be on the kind of wings of the argument, either very passionate that this was a big mistake and we should be going back into Europe and getting rid of this result – I don’t agree with that, or very passionate that we have now got the vote and we absolutely have to deliver on it in its most purest form – I don’t agree with that either. What we need is something that is politically sustainable and that respects the result but actually recognises that if we don’t deliver a Conservative Brexit, in other words it has our values at its heart, as in a strong economy, well managed public finances, opportunity – then actually it won’t be something I believe that carries the whole country. I represent one of the youngest constituencies in the whole country, in fact it is the youngest constituency demographically alongside Battersea, and unless you make it work for communities like mine, as those voters get older and they form a bigger part of the electorate, they will simply demand a change and I don't think spending the next 10 to 15 years as a country continuing to debate an argument about our relationship with our European neighbours, will serve this country’s future well. We need to resolve this debate and argument now, we need to put the divisions it’s created behind us and we need to look ahead and debate what’s the kind of country you want to be after Brexit – that’s the most important thing to me.

SR: But you’ve got to get Brexit sorted first haven’t you? I’m keen to talk specifics and Jacob Rees Mogg said …

JUSTINE GREENING: We can spend forever and a day debating it, that’s the challenge we’ve got.

SR: Jacob Rees Mogg says that all he’s doing is trying to get Theresa May to stick to the promise she already made to leave the customs union. What’s your view on that, should the UK leave the customs union?

JUSTINE GREENING: I’m interested in the outcomes. I think we have to respect the …

SR: But we need the process first, don’t we? We can’t just talk about the outcomes, we need to work out how to get there and whether or not we’re going to be in the customs union is surely at the heart of that.

JUSTINE GREENING: It is but in the end what does the customs union represent for us? It’s about being able to trade freely and when goods and services are crossing borders, have that happen in a way that’s not bureaucratic and all I guess people like myself are saying is, it’s how we actually deliver on that continuing that matters. It really matters when it comes down to the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Ireland, we can’t go backwards on the politics there, that is absolutely crucial I think for lots of moderate Conservatives like myself but what we want now is this discussion resolved, the Prime Minister needs to get the parliamentary party behind her. She has our backing and I think she now needs to get the backing of some of the harder Brexiteers and they need to recognise that a successful approach to Brexit is going to need compromise, not just in the country as a whole but also in the Conservative party and also from them and that’s what they now need to do, is be prepared to have some give and take and we’ll have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette I’m afraid on the Brexit situation and they need to recognise that.

SR: And who is ‘they’? I mean it’s obvious that you are talking about people like Jacob Rees Mogg but it’s also, let’s be frank, people around the Cabinet table as well isn’t it? You’re talking about people like Boris Johnson who reportedly has said that they are ready to resign from the Cabinet if Theresa May pushes ahead with staying in the customs union or customs partnership.

JUSTINE GREENING: Well yes, I hope they can show some leadership and I hope they can recognise it is going to require give and take and that will require give and take from them as well and all I can say is I resigned from government and I’ve gone to the back benches and I’m doing just fine and I’m enjoying the additional freedom and I can campaign on the things that matter to me.

SR: So you are saying it wouldn’t actually be too bad if some of the Brexiteers stepped down from Cabinet?

JUSTINE GREENING: I’m saying we have to decide what’s important to all of us. From my perspective I left government because I wanted to campaign on something that matters to me hugely which is social mobility, I don’t accept Britain as it is today being a country where where you’re growing up means you get very different chances in life, that’s just plain wrong. I think it’s wrong for individuals, I think it’s bad for communities and I think it’s bad for our country overall. I actually think if you think of a Britain where we all did get an equal shot at opportunity, where people did get the chance to make the most of their potential, that’s really the key to success for us in the 21st century. In the 21st century it is all going to be about the knowledge economy, it’s going to be about countries that can make the most of their people and that’s what I want to see our country do.

SR: Now let’s get to the important bit of this Brexit debate shall we because yes, the Brexiteers have been making loud noises but let’s be honest, they don’t actually have the numbers to really hold the Prime Minister hostage to what they want. You on the more Remain side of the Conservative party do, so what are your red lines? Would you be prepared to rebel against the government?

JUSTINE GREENING: It’s not about red lines, I mean we’re all going to have to realise that we have to find some kind of a sustainable agreement within the Conservative party itself. I would describe myself as a moderate, I absolutely accept that we’re leaving the EU but the question is how do you do that in a way that brings the broad mass of the British public with you, when we know the vote was broadly split, how do you do it in a way that protects our economy, that protects our public finances and that means it doesn’t come, Brexit doesn’t come at the expense of social mobility.

SR: I understand where you want to get to but the reality is your most powerful tool is the fact that you can defeat the government, that’s the way to get listened to isn’t it, if you don’t like the Brexit vision that’s being put forward?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think the way to get listened to is not to send letters that get published in the paper and make ultimatums through the papers, I think it’s to get round the table and to hash out a deal of what’s an alternative that’s really going to bring the overall Conservative party with it. I don't think people can afford to stay in their comfort zones however convenient and easy that may feel for them. I’m willing to compromise, I think we all have to if we’re going to show some leadership, I think people are frankly fed up with the Brexit debate that seems to be focused all about the personalities, all about the politicians and not about people and that needs to change. I think the Prime Minister came into her role wanting to bring people together but she can only do that if people are willing to make compromises and that’s what I think the parliamentary party and members of the Cabinet now need to be prepared to do.

SR: Just finally, before we do these interviews I sometimes ask people on social media if they have any questions for our guests and one that came up a couple of times actually with you is would you be prepared to run for London Mayor? If you could give a straight answer I’m sure the people who put that question forward would be very happy.

JUSTINE GREENING: Well I thought I’d get through the London elections first before I think about anything else. I literally left, I left Cabinet because I’ve never felt a role in politics to particularly define myself or make what I’m doing worthwhile but the main job I’ve always cared about is being Member of Parliament in Putney so no, I haven’t made my mind up at all on any of that stuff, it’s not particularly what drives me. What drives me is what I want to try and achieve for my community and my country.

SR: Okay, not definitely ruling it out though. Justine Greening, thank you very much for today.

JUSTINE GREENING: Thank you.