Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Kwasi Kwarteng MP

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Well we have had a lot of criticism of the Prime Minister’s plans so far this morning so it is time now to hear the defence. Joining us is the Brexit Minister, Kwasi Kwarteng. Thank you for being on the show.

KWASI KWARTENG: Thank you.

SR: Now to start off with, there have been a lot of stories in the newspapers this morning about the possibility of the vote being delayed, is that going to happen?

KWASI KWARTENG: My understanding is that we’ll have a vote on Tuesday and we are looking to win that vote. There is a lot of speculation, a lot of people saying lots of different things but we won’t actually know until the day itself and I look forward to concluding the debate and seeing what happens.

SR: You say you are looking to win the vote.

KWASI KWARTENG: Absolutely, absolutely.

SR: Can you really look me in the eye and say to me that you think there is a possibility that you might actually win the vote?

KWASI KWARTENG: Look, in House of Commons votes anything can happen and I think that we’ve got a good shot of winning.

SR: A good shot of winning?

KWASI KWARTENG: Yes, I think so because the argument is a strong argument. I think the deal is a strong deal, I wouldn’t have taken up my post if I didn’t believe that the deal delivers the Brexit vote. Now we heard Hilary Benn, we heard him talk about business, we heard him talk about uncertainty and that’s exactly what passing the withdrawal agreement, the final vote will do, it will deliver certainty. I was in my constituency on Friday talking to businesspeople, small businesses and they said to me we need to get the vote done, we need certainty and they actually looked at me and said why are you politicians playing silly games – that was the phrase they used – about the future of this country.

SR: So if we’re talking about providing certainty then, what is the Plan B? Because you must have a Plan B, any responsible government would have a Plan B.

KWASI KWARTENG: As I said, we’ve got to try and win the vote, I’m not going to speculate as to what happens should the deal or the final vote be voted down, I think that would create a lot more uncertainty, I think it would create chaos is a word that’s been described, I think Tony Benn himself said – sorry, not Tony Benn, that’s a Freudian slip, Hilary Benn himself said on your show that uncertainty was exactly what business didn’t want and I think a way to end that uncertainty is to vote for the deal on Tuesday.

SR: At the same time though, we’ve seen around a hundred Conservative MPs express their issues, the DUP say they will vote against, the SNP, Labour, the Lib Dems and the government became the first government to lose a motion finding it in contempt of Parliament. I mean these are extraordinary times, what does Theresa May need to do to turn it around and rescue the negotiations?

KWASI KWARTENG: You are right, these are extraordinary times. I think lots of people are under a lot of stress, they are difficult issues but I would like to put it in context. We were in the EC and the EU for 45 years, it took us about 10 years to get in in the first place and we’re coming out and what the deal does, what the agreement does, is actually manage that process in an orderly and smooth way. It’s a difficult thing to do, no country has done that and the deal on offer, the withdrawal agreement, is a very good way to manage that exit. Now I understand why people who want to stay in the EU want to tear it down, I am slightly more confused by Brexiteers like I was, I campaigned very vigorously for Brexit and I’m very surprised that people on our side of the argument are, when we have three months and three weeks left to our formal exit, are willing to blow up a deal which actually offers a very good path out of the EU.

SR: Let’s talk about one of those people shall we? Boris Johnson has written in the Sun on Sunday today, he says when he talks to his friends and colleagues about why they might vote for the deal, they offer a groan of despair and only give one reason which is because they believe there is no alternative, we’ve run out of time and run out of road. You are someone who is relatively close to Boris Johnson, is he talking about you there?

KWASI KWARTENG: No, not at all, not at all. I mean I took up my post a few weeks ago, I’ve spent all my time, almost all my waking hours on the withdrawal agreement and I’ve said to Boris, the more I read the agreement, the more I liked it and the more I actually got into the weeds of it because I think it delivers on not three but four things. It delivers on freedom of movement, we get to have our own immigration policy; we stop the annual subscription to the EU club if you like after the initial payments; we have our own independent trade policy, the CJU ends its jurisdiction over Britain and it’s a strong deal.

SR: There are some issues as well though …

KWASI KWARTENG: Of course there are.

SR: You can see why people have concerns about being trapped in the backstop for example.

KWASI KWARTENG: Yes, I absolutely see why people are concerned about the backstop because the backstop is not an ideal situation. Having said that, the backstop is a contingency so if we haven’t negotiated a free trade agreement then the backstop kicks in. I am confident that we can organise and sign a free trade agreement with the EU. People say it took seven years to do a deal with Canada or Korea or whoever it was, but the difference was that those were third parties. We have been in the EU for 46 years or we will have been in it for 46 years so it should be relatively straightforward to conclude a free trade arrangement in much less time than would be the case with two third party countries.

SR: We’ll be talking to Dominic Raab, or hearing an interview I did earlier with Dominic Raab a little bit later in the show, the former Brexit Secretary, and he said that there actually was room to negotiate a better deal when it comes to the backstop, that it could have been just a temporary arrangement.

KWASI KWARTENG: Well I wasn’t privy to those discussions and of course he has his own reasons for why he left government and why he felt the negotiations were unsatisfactory but to Dominic and other Brexiteer colleagues, I would say that we have three months and less than three weeks before we have the formal exit day. If the deal goes through we have a plan with which we can leave the EU and that’s what many of my constituents are saying, they say we voted to leave and this is a plan that actually delivers that.

SR: So you think that if it doesn’t go through we might not leave the EU?

KWASI KWARTENG: Well clearly people think that because Tony Blair was in the studios last week saying that we should have a second referendum and the reason why he wants a second referendum is because he wants to stay in the EU and you just have to look at things like betting markets for example, they are saying that the chances of a second referendum are increasing because of the uncertainty so I really implore Brexiteer colleagues to think about what they’re doing. They will consult their constituencies and their own consciences but really I think more uncertainty, more confusion could well frustrate the very end that they want.

SR: The problem that you have is that it doesn’t seem like there is a majority for this deal in the House of Commons and if the Norway Plus option, something that your Cabinet colleague Amber Rudd suggested as a plausible solution, staying within the single market, customs union etc, freedom of people – is that something that you could stomach?

KWASI KWARTENG: Speaking personally I would not want the Norway Plus or whatever it’s called, the Norway Arrangement, because it simply doesn’t allow us to have our own immigration policy and clearly free movement of people was a big issue in the referendum campaign which I supported when I supported the Leave campaign. So I don't think Norway Plus or whatever you would like to call it, actually delivers on that.

SR: So would you resign if that was the government’s policy?

KWASI KWARTENG: Well let’s just wait and see. I think that we have to win the vote on Tuesday and then after that we can see where we are.

SR: Another potential Plan B that people are talking about is a managed no deal. As a Brexiteer yourself are you worried about what no deal would look like?

KWASI KWARTENG: You mention a managed no deal, I want a managed deal, that to me is a better outcome than a managed no deal. I think no deal is again adding to uncertainty, is adding to an air of chaos and what businesspeople – and it’s not just businesspeople, it’s actually people who work in small businesses – are concerned about is having some degree of certainty. They want, they see it as a soap opera really, a lot of what’s going on and they want the soap opera to end and they want to get on with their lives.

SR: Okay, Kwasi Kwarteng, thank you very for joining us this morning.

KWASI KWARTENG: Thank you.