Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Shami Chakrabarti

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Now the Brexit talks between Labour and the government are expected to continue tomorrow in an attempt to try and break the impasse and joining us now is the Shadow Attorney General, Baroness Shami Chakrabarti, thank you very much for being on the programme this morning. Now I have various things to put to you about Brexit but I did just want to start with the allegations that are in the Sunday Times about the way that Labour is dealing with complaints about anti-Semitism within the party. According to the Sunday Times, Labour members investigated for posting Heil Hitler, Jews the problem, haven’t been expelled even though the complaints were sent a year ago and Jeremy Corbyn’s office has been involved in delaying or blocking at least 101 complaints of anti-Semitism. It is nearly three years since your report, what’s your reaction to this?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Well I have to say, you can imagine that I checked this out before coming on because I fully expected to have to talk about this. Those in the party that have looked at these specific allegations in the Sunday Times refute them, they actually challenge the accuracy of the report and some of the emails that have been leaked actually demonstrate the opposite of what has been spun in the Sunday Times, that’s what my colleagues tell me, that particular lines were extracted from emails to actually give the opposite impression of what was the fact so they are often, some of these emails are about actually disciplining people and they are quoted out of context to make it look like the reverse but there is a serious issue here. We have had a problem in the Labour party and by the way it goes way back. I looked a very unsavoury general election poster whilst I was waiting to come on from 2005 presenting Michael Howard in a very unattractive way that I think can only be described as an anti-Semitic trope, that was in 2005. But let’s be honest, we’ve had problems, as there are in all parties, not just with anti-Semitism but other forms of racism too. We sort of heard that from Sam Gyimah a few minutes ago, we have to not be partisan about tackling racism, we have to not be factional. There was a period between general secretaries when some junior staff who were dealing with complaints looked to the Leader’s office for leadership and advice and support but that practice ended when Jennie Formby took over.

SR: That’s a big deal for a lot of people, for example …

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Just to be clear on that, because I have quizzed people about this because I have a personal investment in this as you know as well as coming on to your show, there was a hiatus between general secretaries when junior staff who were dealing with complaints asked for leadership and guidance. They had the final decision …

SR: Is any of that still going on?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: I am told unequivocally, no, because Jennie Formby is a very strong general secretary who is committed to making this a priority so there is no interference from Jeremy Corbyn or his staff in the disciplinary process. Now does that mean that we’re where we want to be? No, of course not because one example of bad behaviour is one too many but we have been trying to improve our processes, speed them up. At the same time we have to speed them up and still be robust and fair, so there is more to do but there is no interference from Jeremy or his staff, under the new general secretary we’ve got a more correct process.

SR: You are one of the UK’s leading human rights advocates, aren’t you angry about this?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: I am very angry but I return to this point, whether it’s Islamophobia in the Conservative party or other forms as racism, as in Sam Gyimah’s case …

SR: But we’re talking about Labour.

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Absolutely but I don’t believe that you can tackle racism in any party or in society if you make it a party political or internal factional matter. I think we have to just say this is too important to politicise or factionalise. We have problems, we have had problems for some time in the Labour party and there is a particular manifestation of anti-Semitism that you sometimes get on the left which is to confuse it with anti-elitism, so tropes about bankers, that’s a particular danger and track that is there on the left, we have to tackle it but it would be much easier to tackle it if we don’t make it a personal attack on Jeremy Corbyn or a Conservative attack on Labour or an inter-factional attack it seems to me. We need to take the same approach, it seems to me, when there are claims about the Conservative party and not go ‘Oh the Tories have got a problem with Islamophobia’, we have got to come together as democratic people in the context of the rise of the far right in Europe and in this country. The democratic people who are anti-racist need to come together and tackle it in that way.

SR: Later today the Jewish Labour Movement are going to be voting on whether they have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: My plea to them is not to personalise it because as I say …

SR: But many feel that …

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Of course I understand that and he is the leader of the party and that’s what they would say but how can we take on our party without a vote of confidence in the leader. My plea to the Jewish Labour Movement is to stay in the Labour movement and to tackle racism together, not to personalise it and make it about Jeremy Corbyn because he is one person and he won’t be leader forever. We have to make this non-factional, non-personal and work together and that’s my plea to the colleagues and comrades in the Jewish Labour Movement who are such an important part of Labour’s history and the Labour story.

SR: Okay, now I’m keen to move on to Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May have been in talks last week with more talks planned tomorrow. Are you optimistic that there’s a deal to be struck?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: I am one of life’s optimists, I always try to be optimistic but I did speak to people who have been in the room, I spoke in particular last night to Rebecca Long-Bailey, our Shadow Business Secretary, and so far our impression is that Mrs May has not moved an inch on her red lines. That is worrying to me because the clock is running down. We are almost beyond midnight because we’re past the 29th March, she’s asking for more time but you have to compromise and compromise is not just telling us again and again how good your existing deal is. This is a deal that has been voted down in Parliament three times and I understand in this that whilst people have been mutually respectful in these discussions and they have been respectful and friendly and positive in tone, in substance as yet there has been not a jot in movement from the government and that isn’t going to break the deadlock I’m afraid.

SR: I’m interested to know if there has been any compromise on Labour’s side as well, particularly in regard to a second referendum because we have been hearing slightly different things from the shadow cabinet. We can have a quick look just to illustrate that view …

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: I thought you might do this.

SR: Exactly. Just to make it clear we have got Emily Thornberry, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, saying any deal agreed by Parliament must be ‘subject to a confirmatory public vote’ and Rebecca Long-Bailey on the other side ‘If we get exactly what we want, a good strong deal, then I would struggle to find a reason to put that to a public vote.’ You can see why people are confused, is that a red line or what is the position?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: So you and I know that as of our party conference last autumn, a second referendum became part of our policy but as Sam Gyimah said, it is a process point, it’s not an end in itself and the purpose of having a second referendum would be to stop a catastrophic no deal that we cannot countenance for the reasons that Jess Phillips said in that fantastic interview by the way, it was a wonderful piece of political TV. We cannot have a no deal because it would be devastating for the lives of so many people in Britain, for business, for the trade unions but in particular to the poor. So to stop a no deal, to stop a bad deal and to break a parliamentary deadlock, I have to more and more agree with Sam and with Jess that we can’t go on like this. If we can’t get proper, proper, real consensus in parliament it seems to me that a public vote, and that includes a general election or a second referendum, become more and more likely, even necessary.

SR: But it’s not a red line? Just listening to you, if Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May do manage to get a deal that they can both agree on, that wouldn’t necessarily have to be put to a public vote?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Well I’m personally cautious about putting Shami’s red lines out when Shami is not in the room and we’re saying we’re in the compromise business. I am telling you what I think is likely, I don’t see at this point in this process after nearly three years since the referendum with no agreement in the Conservative party – yes, some of the options that are closer to our preference are the customs union got the most support in parliament but still that was not overwhelming support. I find it almost impossible to imagine that Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn can go and have a cup of tea in a room or several cups of tea over several days and then come out and the smoke goes up and everyone is going to be happy. So it seems to me this has been left so late in the day, and I’m afraid I must criticise Mrs May a bit for that, it’s been left so late in the day it’s hard to imagine that we’re going to make real progress now without either a general election or a second referendum on any deal that she can get over the line in Parliament and it has to be got over the line in Parliament. It is not going to be a bilateral deal between the leaders of the two main parties, they need to be talking about what might get through the House of Commons.

SR: And talking about areas of agreement, the Prime Minister said this morning that the fact is there are areas where the two main parties agree and the first example she gives is we both want to end free movement. Do you share the same policy on immigration?

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Well clearly her and her party are much more of an anti-immigration party and Labour has never been an anti-immigration party. There have been times in the past when I haven’t liked some of the Labour party’s rhetoric, let’s be clear, on immigration and I don't think that helped when the same people were campaigning for Remain in the referendum, however we are where we are. In our manifesto in 2017 we said when you leave the EU the concept of free movement ends but that doesn’t mean movement ends, so I do think that we are much more positive about the rights of EU nationals in the UK and indeed of Brits in Europe and movement between the two.

SR: Shami Chakrabarti, we are out of time, thank you very much for being on the programme this morning.

SHAMI CHAKRABARTI: Thank you.