Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Louella Braverman MP Brexit Minister

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: We’ve been talking a lot this morning about the extra NHS cash and whether the Brexit dividend is real so let’s ask the Brexit Minister, Suella Braverman, someone who did stand in front of that famous bus promising £350 million a week to the NHS.

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: I did.

SR: You did, we’ve got the evidence so you can’t deny it now! How much is the Brexit dividend?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Well we pay significant amount of money to the EU because of our membership, there are various figures out there in terms of what our actual contribution is. The ONS estimates our net contribution to be about £10 billion on an accruals basis so this is a significant amount of money that we paid the EU that will stop when we leave.

SR: You say there are various ways of looking at it but actually you need to know how much the Brexit dividend is because it’s being used to fund the NHS, you’ve got to come up with a proper figure don’t you?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: That’s what Theresa May has made clear today, that because of our leaving the European Union and because of our cessation of those payments, one of the benefits is we will have the chance to allocate more money towards our public services like the NHS.

SR: So how much is it then, the Brexit dividend that’s the going to the NHS?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Well the Chancellor is going to be setting out how much, how the money, this £20 billion announcement is going to be made up. We know that it will be partly from our Brexit windfall, our Brexit dividend and…

SR: But how much is it then? We don’t really know do we?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: As I said, there are lots of estimates and we pay on average about £10 billion a year to the EU and that is an amount of money that goes from the UK to the EU and once we leave the EU we will not be paying that amount of money after our departure, so that’s a really good benefit that we should all be welcoming.

SR: Someone who isn’t necessarily welcoming it is Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative MP. She Tweeted saying the Brexit dividend is tosh.

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: I don’t agree with that. I think what we’ve got to focus on is we’ve got some really good news today, the Prime Minister has made a clear announcement that £20 billion in real terms is going to be allocated to the NHS over the next five years, that’s going to be going to the frontline to increase doctors and nurses and equipment so that we can improve services. It’s under pressure, we’ve acknowledged that and we want to make sure it moves in the right direction.

SR: So maybe she shouldn’t have mentioned this Brexit dividend at all because this is the issue isn’t it? There is a good news announcement today on the NHS but all we’re talking about is where the money is coming from and if the Brexit dividend is real, I mean it’s a bit of a risky way to fund that Boris Johnson leadership bid isn’t it because perhaps that’s something that he would prefer to have ironed out before he makes his bid.

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Well as I said, we send billions of pounds to the EU because of our membership of the EU, one of the benefits of leaving the EU will be that we no longer have to pay that level of money every year and we should be welcoming that. That money will be retained by our government and will be able to be diverted upon a decision of our government to our public services, whether that’s hospitals or whether that’s schools and I think that is really something we should be looking forward to.

SR: Okay, let’s move on shall we and we can talk Brexit a bit more widely with your ministerial hat on. I went to Bracknell this week where I spoke to Leave voters who said look, the referendum is all about immigration, that’s what it was about. It feels as if things have gone a bit quiet on immigration recently though, it’s bogged down in all other details about Brexit so Michel Barnier reportedly is ready to put free movement of people back on the table in return for a good trade deal so can you clear something up? Is free movement of people up for renegotiation?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Well again, our policy has been very clear and the Prime Minister has been very clear, that we want to take back control over our migration policy, again another benefit that we stand to gain from our departure from the EU and that will give us the chance to determine how many people come into this country, whether it’s highly skilled or low skilled workers and the other way round and I think that is a really important policy position from the government.

SR: So a red line then, free movement of people, it’s going to end?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: The Prime Minister has made clear that we are going to take back control of our borders which means taking back control of our migration policy. We saw this week in the Commons, very interestingly, an amendment tabled by Labour which related to the EEA and membership of the EEA which would have meant allowing free movement of people to continue and that was very strongly rejected by the Commons from Members of Parliament on the Conservative benches and also, interestingly, many members from the Labour benches.

SR: It is pretty clear that EEA isn’t going to happen, we’re not going to get the official Norway model but I think what potentially it looks like could be on the cards if you listen to some commentators is this idea that EU migrants could get preferential treatment for example in return for a good trade deal. Is that something that you think could be up for grabs?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Well we are about to start discussing the terms of our future economic partnership with the EU and I’m looking forward to the White Paper which is going to be published very soon, in July, by the government which sets out what our aspirations and objectives are in terms of our relationship with the EU and what we’ve been clear about is we want to ensure that we still have the opportunities for EU workers, professionals, experts, people who want to contribute to our economy, to have the chance to – and students – to come to the UK and take part in British life.

SR: So you’re not ruling out the idea then that it could be easier for a worker from the EU to come to the UK and find a job than someone from say India or China or Australia?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: We’ve made it clear that we want to have control over migration policy and that will be for the government to determine. We will also be negotiating with the EU what the position of our migration policy will be with the EU and we want to have a skills based migration policy which rewards and encourages people to come to this country where they can contribute to our economy and I think that …

SR: But it’s still a little bit unclear, so it is possible that we could have preferential treatment of EU migrants?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: The government has made clear that we are going to control migration and that means an end to free movement of people and that’s a really important aspect of the referendum result. It’s something that many people around the country really care about, I know in my constituency of Fareham where the majority of people voted to leave the European Union, they care about migration but we have to strike the balance correctly because our economy also needs and values the contribution of people from EU countries and voting to leave the European Union is not a vote to stop EU migration.

SR: Okay, now we have some pretty difficult votes in the House of Commons this week, I’m not going to get into the minutiae of whether a meaningful vote is meaningful in what circumstances but it was effectively about whether or not MPs should get a say if there was no deal. So can you say that no deal is still better than a bad deal?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: No deal is definitely better than a bad deal and the Prime Minister has made clear that that is an aspect of our negotiating strategy. What’s important about the votes this week and the amendments going to be considered this week, next week, is that we don’t undermine the negotiations currently being conducted between the EU and the UK but we don’t ….

SR: Would you say that some people are doing that then, undermining your negotiating hand by putting forward these amendments?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Well I think that by tying the hands of government there is an inadvertent effect that there will be a detrimental consequence on the negotiations and it’s really important when it comes to the negotiation of treaties, as it was with Maastricht and Nice and Lisbon and Amsterdam, that the government has much flexibility as possible to go back and negotiate with the EU with its freedom to do so and if it’s being hamstrung by Parliament that freedom is significantly curtailed.

SR: So would you quite like people like Dominic Grieve to pipe down a bit then?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Dominic is a very valued colleague of mine and I think that the position of the government is that we value his input. There has been a really constructive dialogue between all the Members of Parliament and the government and at the end of the day we want to produce a piece of legislation that is robust and commands the confidence of as many people as possible and I am very glad that’s what we are edging towards step by step.

SR: It’s interesting about the destination that you are edging towards step by step, I spoke to Dr Phillip Lee, the man of course who resigned from government earlier this week and he said he’s worried that we’re going to end up in a worst of all worlds Brexit and I do wonder if sometimes it does feel as if we’re softening Brexit that goes and for a Brexiteer like yourself is it a little bit like boiling a frog, you keep cranking up the temperature a little bit and the frog doesn’t realise what’s happening but it’s too late to jump out. I mean is that what’s happened with Brexit being softened and softened and softened, is there any point that you say this is too much, I don’t like the way we’re going?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: I disagree that Brexit is being softened, we are honouring the referendum result and the Prime Minister is committed to ensuring that when we leave the European Union, which is definitely going to happen and that is law now, next year, we will be leaving the Customs Union and we will be leaving the Single Market, we will be stopping free movement of people, we will have control of our money, our laws, our trade policy – these are great opportunities for everyone …

SR: Very, very diplomatic. Do you ever look at Jacob Rees Mogg and think, oh I wish I had the freedom to say what I really thought?

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: [Laughs] It’s an honour for me to serve the government in this position and I’m really confident that the government, as I say, is making great progress in what is a challenging situation but one that we’re all looking forward to.

SR: Suella Braverman, thank you very much for being here today.

SUELLA BRAVERMAN: Thank you.