Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Tom Watson Labour Deputy Leader

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: The deep split in the Conservative party on Brexit means that Labour’s position could be absolutely crucial for the Prime Minister. Up to 70 Tory backbenchers are thought to have deep reservations about the Chequers plan so she may need to rely on Labour votes to get legislation through Parliament and in some respects the Chequers plan looks quite similar to Labour’s position, so will Labour back the plan and prop up a Prime Minister in spite of her own party splits or will they vote against in an effort to force a general election? Well joining us now is Labour’s Deputy Leader, Tom Watson. Thank you very much for coming to the studio this morning.

TOM WATSON: Good to see you Sophy.

SR: Thank you. So we’ve finally got sight of what the Prime Minister wants to do on Brexit, what do you make of her plan?

TOM WATSON: Well we’re very concerned about particular aspects to it. We should just say the document published, when you leave the EU there are about 10,000 decisions you have to make. We set out our red lines at the beginning of this process, they still apply. I guess the big debate in the country is about customs union and single market and we’re particularly concerned about the customs union proposals because we think that her proposals require a technological solution that doesn’t yet exist and there is a sort of off the shelf reliable plan for a different form of customs union that we’re suggesting, so it’s not good enough for us yet and in one sense, particularly on the customs union, we probably agree with those ministers who resigned from her Cabinet last week that that particular part of the plan is unworkable.

SR: So let’s just get really clear here, in its current plan will Labour back the Chequers deal?

TOM WATSON: Well we’ve not decided our voting position on the legislation that would enable it but on its current form it’s not good enough. We want a jobs first Brexit and we don’t think that Theresa May can guarantee the jobs of British workers with the plan as it stands now.

SR: It looks as though Labour is going to form some unholy alliance with Conservative Brexiteers to try and thwart this plan.

TOM WATSON: Well we’re not talking to, we have obviously have nothing to do with Tory Brexiteers, they can decide whether they support the plan or not but we’ve been very consistent. Kier Starmer at the very beginning of this process set out his six red lines, we’re the ones that demanded transitional arrangements because we needed to give business comfort that they could plan ahead protecting jobs in the country, particularly in the manufacturing sector which is important in the Midlands and the north of England and we’ve been pretty consistent in that and we don’t think that the plan as set out by Theresa May so far will adhere to those red lines.

SR: The thing is though, it feels at the minute like we’re standing on the precipice here. There’s not much time left, there is a deal on the table, it might not be perfect, you might not agree with all of it but at the moment it feels like it’s the only plan the government currently has. What are the alternatives? Surely the responsible thing for the opposition to do is to put party politics aside and say maybe this is the best we’re going to get.

TOM WATSON: Believe me, Sophy, I do understand what you’re saying there and I worry about this all the time. When you represent a manufacturing heartland like I do in West Bromwich East in the Midlands, you can literally feel the pressure but we have to get the right deal. We have said to the government, come and listen to …

SR: Even if it means we might not get any deal at all? That’s a big risk.

TOM WATSON: Well the problem we have with parliamentary arithmetic and the meltdown that’s going on in the government at the moment with key Brexiteers leaving the Cabinet, it’s sometimes very difficult to see whether Theresa May could get a majority within her own party for her own plan.

SR: Well she could if you backed her though, couldn’t she? That’s the point, that’s why Labour has got such a responsibility here.

TOM WATSON: Well we understand the responsibility and we understand the pressure that that brings as well but we’re not negotiating, we’re not the negotiating team and we’ve been consistent for two years now, we’ve been saying look, these are our concerns, these are our red lines, please talk to us about this, we have got the interest of the country at heart as well and we’ll work with you if you listen to our arguments.

SR: Because there are some who would look at the deals on the table and think there’s not that much that separates the Chequers plan with what Labour are saying. Neither of you wants a hard border in Northern Ireland, both of you say that you want to follow EU regulations to try and make trade easier, both of you say you want an end to free movement of people but easy access to the jobs market. What are those red lines because I’m a bit confused?

TOM WATSON: Well look, we said there are 10,000 decisions but for example for us, we’ve always said, in every interview I’ve ever done, I’ve done it with you, wherever we’ve done it we’ve said we want a jobs first Brexit. We want to protect the rights of British workers and …

SR: Yes but that’s …

TOM WATSON: Well let me finish, then you look at the appointment of Dominic Raab, a man who has said he thinks our labour standards are too low and that Brexit gives us an opportunity to reduce the security that already insecure workers have got, we can’t sign up to a plan that does that, we’re the Labour party.

SR: Yes but you are talking about Dominic Raab’s past conversations, I’m talking about the difference, the actual difference between the Chequers plan on the table and Labour’s position on Brexit and I’m a bit unclear what those massive red lines are that would risk a no-deal Brexit.

TOM WATSON: The key person appointed to a Brexiting team, the Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab, has says he wants to undermine the limited securities that British workers already …

SR: When did he say that?

TOM WATSON: He’s said that since he’s been a Member of Parliament.

SR: Yes, but has he said it since he’s been Brexit Secretary? Has he said that is what …?

TOM WATSON: Well frankly that doesn’t matter, if you are looking to build confidence in the opposition in your plan appointing Dominic Raab was a controversial act. Now he might want to come to us and reassure us that British workers will be secure in their plan but right now we are very unconfident about his ability to deliver that.

SR: So what you are saying is that you are prepared to risk a no-deal Brexit, you’re prepared to look at your constituents in the face because of something that one member of the Cabinet has said?

TOM WATSON: No, I’m not saying that Sophy, I’m saying that’s one example of why we have very little confidence in Theresa May’s plan and her ability to deliver it and frankly for you to say it’s down to us to deliver a plan, when she can’t even deliver her own Cabinet, is a little bit rich. What we want is a plan that puts jobs and businesses first, right. We’ve said on the customs union, we’ve outlined our position on the single market, we’ve talked about how we want proper environmental standards and we want guarantees for human rights, we want guarantees for workers in the workplace. If the government can’t even give us that, then please don’t try and say it’s down to us to deliver a half-baked plan that will leave millions of workers worse off because we’re not going to do it.

SR: Now it feels as though the Chequers plan’s on the table, the prospect of no deal is something that’s worrying a lot of people. There is potentially a third way though isn’t there, a people’s vote, a second referendum, is Labour taking that off the table or is it something that you can count on in certain situations?

TOM WATSON: It’s not our policy to have a people’s vote, we’ve not called for it, it wasn’t in our manifesto but actually as a result of last week it seems to me that to take that off the table completely when there might be a set of circumstances where parliament cannot deliver a meaningful vote but we don’t want that, when we think of a people’s vote we don’t actually want that, what we want is what we’ve called for consistently for the last two years which is a meaningful vote in parliament, MPs to discuss the plan and the ability to suggest changes to that plan so that we can have comfort that there is a majority in our democratically elected House of Commons.

SR: Would you prefer to see a people’s vote over a no deal scenario?

TOM WATSON: Yes, yes, oh over a no deal? Sorry, I thought you meant over a … Well we would need to see the deal and really what we’ve said on this is how could you possibly close your options when you have not actually even seen the deal completed in Europe. I mean this is a plan that so far has had nine days in existence. David Davis is making a speech in the House of Commons tomorrow, I’m told Boris Johnson is writing things next week. Theresa May’s own plan might not last the fortnight so I think for us to try and close things down before we see how that plays out would be a mistake.

SR: Some people could see that as a betrayal, people who voted Brexit in the referendum, they will see this as politicians just trying to stop it.

TOM WATSON: Well thank you for giving me the opportunity to reassure people that that’s not what we want. We are leaving the EU, Labour MPs voted to trigger Article 50. This is all about the deal we get when we leave the EU and that’s important because there are millions of families out there who need us to get a good deal, we need to give them comfort in the workplace, the idea that they can still have economic prosperity and in generations to come will be able to find good and fulfilling work.

SR: Okay, let’s move on to something that we might get a bit more consensus on and that’s the World Cup. Everyone has enjoyed the football recently of course, it’s been one of those amazing summer distractions from politics and Brexit, you want us to try and host the World Cup in 2030, tell us about the plan.

TOM WATSON: Well yes, I’ve been driving my kids crazy because I am old enough to remember Italia 90 when we got through to the semi-finals and the country was alive then and actually after a very difficult year, seeing the country united these last few weeks has been fantastic and it seems to me you look at Premier League football, which is the best in the world, you look at our lower league football which is really well run, the Football Foundation has made investments in grassroots football. It’s the national game, it can bring the country together, it can give us hope. We were disappointed in 2018 when we did the World Cup bid so it seems to me we should be bidding for the World Cup 2030. That’s a few years off and we don’t know who’s going to be in government in a few years’ time, if we’re in government I hope it’s one of the first things a Labour government does which is work with our FA to try and put a World Cup bid together. If the Conservatives are still in government then we’d like to work with them to make sure that a bid is successful.

SR: The next country to host the World Cup is Qatar, do you think that’s the right place to be doing it?

TOM WATSON: Well actually there’s obviously been very great concerns about the way the construction workers have been treated in Qatar and the government of Qatar have acknowledged they made some very bad mistakes in the early days of that. Thanks to our trade unions and actually the British Health and Safety Executive, I think they have put in a piece of work that has actually helped deal with that but in terms of the running of the World Cup, I think it looks like the planning of it is very, very good. They are obviously doing it in the winter, close to the winter which will bring the temperatures down. They will create havoc in all the national leagues which may cause some tension in the UK but one would hope it would be a very, very good World Cup and that the squad we put out in the last one will be a bit more mature and battle ready, ready to go even further than they did this time.

SR: Yes, certainly an amazing performance this time round. Who are you going to be supporting? I know that England are not in it but …

TOM WATSON: I just wanted England to win so I haven’t really got, I’m not that bothered about the final to be honest with you.

SR: Okay, Tom Watson, thanks very much for being with us.