Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Tony Lloyd

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: One of the Prime Minister’s biggest Brexit headaches to date has been how to resolve the Northern Ireland border issue and by accepting EU rules on goods and food, she thinks she’s solved it. Is she right? Joining me now to discuss is the Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, Tony Lloyd. Mr Lloyd, a very good morning to you. We’ve all had a couple of days now to digest that which has emerged from Chequers, what did you make of it?

TONY LLOYD: Well we’ve not really had a couple of days to digest it because until we have the White Paper published it’s really going to be very difficult to know everything that’s in there but there are a couple of things that are very obvious. This is a political fudge and without pushing that analogy too far, that’s no better than any other kind of fudge. It was designed, and not very successfully I think, to keep the Conservative party together, not to pursue the nation’s interests and there are two issues. One is obviously the question of the hard border, it’s simply not obvious that that’s been solved and the second thing of course is the very real issue round security when we have had warnings from Cressida Dick, the Head of the Metropolitan Police Force, warnings from George Hamilton, the Chief Constable of the Police Service in Northern Ireland about the need on security grounds to get the right deal with our EU partners as we leave. So within that, a political fix is fine to keep the show on the road but not good enough for this country of ours.

NP: So in terms of the agreement that was made on for example freedom of movement, what appears to be a common market for goods, that chimes with Labour’s position then?

TONY LLOYD: No, it doesn’t. It would be great if Theresa May had recognised almost the inexorable logic of why, in the end, Britain will have to end up in the position that Labour’s put forward. What we’ve still got is this rather bizarre promise of some technological fix that nobody has yet believed can be made to work, where goods coming in to this country will be differentiated from those travelling through Britain into the rest of the European Union. Nobody knows how that can be done and that’s why we have already had words from different parts of industry and commerce warning that we’re not there yet. Obviously if Theresa May is genuinely on a journey in the right direction, that’s great but can she drag the rest of the Conservative party with her because that really frankly is the difficult issue. We want this country of ours to be in a proper customs union with the European Union into the future, that’s in the interests of no hard border in Ireland but it’s actually frankly though in the interests of trade in goods for the rest of the United Kingdom, constituencies like my own in the north of England, does need that no hard border across the English Channel as well as no hard border across the island of Ireland. We’re not there yet.

NP: But just in terms of your brief, I mean what exactly in your mind is the problem with the solution that’s been found, this common trade area? It appears to tick all the boxes.

TONY LLOYD: I don't think it does though, does it? What we’ve got still is a situation that’s going to rely on a kind of technology that doesn’t yet obviously exist. What it seems is still being said is that somehow we can differentiate between goods travelling to and fro through Britain into the European Union, of course that’s the Irish Republic from the north of Ireland. It’s not really yet obvious that that’s compatible with what Theresa May’s put forward. Within that as well there is another major issue on this, is the European Union going to be prepared to negotiate on this basis because that’s a fundamental issue as well. What we do know is that if we were saying that we’d be part of a customs union, equivalent to the customs union that now exists, we could guarantee that goods could travel across the border in Northern Ireland but frankly could travel across any other border between the rest of the UK, the Netherlands, France etc. That’s actually what the whole of the UK needs and it’s most certainly what no hard border in Northern Ireland needs otherwise they have got to heed the warnings that hard border is potentially devastating for the progress that’s been made across the island of Ireland and for the rest of us in the UK over the last 20 years. We can’t put that at risk.

NP: Do you agree with your colleague Kier Starmer that there could potentially be a second referendum?

TONY LLOYD: I don't think Kier Starmer has said that, obviously it was [inaudible] very carefully this morning. I think most of us probably are of the view, and when I say most of us, most people in this country, obviously we need the meaningful vote in Parliament. Parliament should be able to say when Theresa May comes back that the deal is an acceptable one. She is going to have trouble with her own ultra Brexit …

NP: I’m sorry to interrupt Mr Lloyd but I don’t quite understand. Here is what Sir Kier said, ‘It is parliament’, as you were saying, ‘that should decide what happens next, it should have the power to decide the options and this might involve a general election or a people’s vote.’

TONY LLOYD: He did say that, it could involve. I think most of us, and this is the point I was going to make …

NP: So it’s an option that the Labour party is keeping open at the moment?

TONY LLOYD: I think the best option for this country at that point would be a general election because this isn’t something … it’s such a complicated issue. What we need is a political party prepared to take power who has a very clear view of the nation’s interests. That’s obviously one that the Conservative party with all its divisions can no longer do and quite frankly that’s why a general election would be the right answer.

NP: My problem with all of this, Mr Lloyd, is that I thought that Jeremy Corbyn had ruled it out.

TONY LLOYD: A general election? I don’t believe he’d do that …

NP: No, no, the people’s vote, the people’s vote.

TONY LLOYD: Well Labour has never committed itself to the people’s vote and I think those are the words that Kier Starmer used this morning. What he said was that Labour hasn’t pursued that line, or words to that effect, and that’s where we are. I must say I genuinely do believe the best vote would be a real people’s vote and that’s a general election because that’s how the public in-toto can make a decision on not simply the merits of the deal that comes back but actually, importantly, the way we take forward a strategy and a policy that’s in the interests of the people of the United Kingdom. We need a united government and we’ve not got one with the present Conservative party.

NP: I mean it strikes me, Mr Lloyd, that there’s enough fudge around this morning to fill a sweet shop.

TONY LLOYD: Well there’s certainly enough fudge been thrown around this week. I’m not quite sure, explain to me where the fudge is in what I’ve said and maybe I’ll respond more clearly.

NP: Jeremy Corbyn ruled out a people’s vote, Kier Starmer said it’s still on the table, which is it?

TONY LLOYD: What Jeremy Corbyn said just the other day is the best outcome of this would be a general election, that’s what I’m saying again this morning. What Kier Starmer, as you’ve repeated, said is that is that it’s not been part of Labour’s thinking that there would be a second vote. What he went on to say is if parliament decides the deal is so unacceptable clearly there has to be a further mechanic. That further mechanic, my own preference very clearly and very clearly Jeremy Corbyn’s preference, I think in the interests of the people of the United Kingdom, would be a general election and Kier Starmer also did talk about a general election. No fudge there, I think that’s very clear.

NP: Whilst we have you, Mr Lloyd, I just want to talk about the anti-Semitism code that’s been adopted by the Labour Party. It excludes a number of behaviours which the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance say are anti-Semitic. Can you say why people would no longer be punished within the Labour party for saying that which Ken Livingstone did, you know, Hitler was a Zionist?

TONY LLOYD: Well in fact what Labour has most certainly committed to is that we’ll match up to the standards of the International Holocaust Remembrance Association because that is something that has been adapted and adopted throughout the length and breadth of this country of ours. What Labour is trying to do though, on top of that, is to make it something that is applicable, that Labour can operationalise in the event of people breaching that standard. Now within that I’m clear, I’m clearly advised, that that would include the situation of Ken Livingstone for example.

NP: There are people who have been suspended from your party for saying, and I’m paraphrasing here of course, Israeli’s are effing Nazis. Since this rule change that would not be considered anti-Semitic by the Labour party.

TONY LLOYD: Well I think it would and the important point about this is that Labour is still in consultation with different Jewish organisations – obviously we’ve got to listen to what people are saying back to us …

NP: Not the Board of Deputies.

TONY LLOYD: We have got to listen to what people are saying back to us and making sure that the standard that we come up with is one that conforms to the standards of the IHRA but importantly also allows us to operationalise that in practical terms to take action where there’s breach from that, what isn’t a high standard, what is an acceptable standard, to make sure that my own party – which has always had a very strong connection with British Jews amongst other communities – is able to face the future and say we are a party committed to anti-Semitism. That’s where we’ve got to get to and that’s where we will get to.

NP: We’ve got a pretty famous visitor arriving in the United Kingdom next week, the President in the United States. Will you be participating in any of the protests, flying the odd blimp or two?

TONY LLOYD: I don't think I’ll be flying the odd blimp. What is clear is that Donald Trump is very unusual by standards of American Presidents that we’ve dealt with in my lifetime, where we’ve had a very close relationship on the ways we think but this is a Donald Trump who’s abrogated standards around climate change, has kicked the very important Iran nuclear deal into touch, it’s a President who is now talking about the possibility of downgrading NATO, of doing deals with President Putin who not that long since has invaded parts of the Ukraine. He does cause great issues great problems, I think it’s really important that our government, Theresa May, is making it very clear that there are limits to our own capacity to work with a President who is so out of kilter with what Britain – and actually the rest of those countries who historically have been part of the Western Alliance, the Western way of thinking – are committed to. I hope Donald Trump will now seriously listen and not simply respond to what he sees are the domestic pressures on him in the United States. The world is bigger than simply small parts of the US and we’ve got to make sure we’ve got that conversational relationship with the American President.

NP: Mr Lloyd, it looks a lovely day in Manchester, we’ll let you go and enjoy it. Many thanks for being with us.

TONY LLOYD: Thanks to you.