Sunday with Niall Paterson Interview with David Gauke Justice Secretary

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: First, Brexit has once again dominated this week and we are still no closer to knowing what the final outcome is going to look like. Joining us from Westminster is the Justice Secretary, David Gauke. Mr Gauke, a very good morning to you.

DAVID GAUKE: Good morning.

NP: I was hoping we could start not on brief and not on Brexit but instead on Oxfam and the comments from the International Development Secretary. She has made it pretty clear that charities who do not co-operate when it comes to safeguarding issues will lose government money, does that really need to be said?

DAVID GAUKE: Well I think given what we have learnt in recent days about Oxfam, it clearly does need to be said. I think the implication in your question is a fair one, I think we need to understand precisely what has happened here but these are clearly horrific circumstances. Information was not shared with the Department for International Development, we have only learnt about this as a government in recent days as the Times has reported on it and frankly organisations like Oxfam and others that receive public money need to ensure that their systems are adequate, need to identify problems and eradicate it and they need to be open with the British government and I think Penny Mordaunt has been absolutely right to make that clear. She is meeting with the Charity Commission this week, she is also meeting with Oxfam but both, if you like, the individual failures which were horrific, the appalling behaviour by Oxfam people is unacceptable but I think there are very significant questions about the way Oxfam have dealt with this over a number of years.

NP: Indeed and as you say, information has been withheld not just from the government but from the Charities Commission. Doesn’t that mean there is a prima facie case that Oxfam has not co-operated when it comes to safety, when it comes to safeguarding issues? I mean shouldn’t we be at the point of actually discussing whether Oxfam should continue to receive government money?

DAVID GAUKE: Well what Penny Mordaunt has made very clear today is that she wants to meet with them, she wants to have an understanding as to whether they have properly gripped this and whether they are showing the moral leadership that they should be showing in terms of properly addressing this. So we need to understand precisely what has happened here but we also need to ensure that organisations are properly dealing with these issues, taking the appropriate action, not trying to hide this from the Charity Commission or the government and clearly these are going to be very important conversations with Oxfam and indeed other charities also need to understand the importance of this.

NP: To move somewhat closer to your brief, it relates to those two IS Jihadists, Alexander Kotey and El Shafee Elsheikh, can you say whether or not in fact they have had their citizenship revoked?

DAVID GAUKE: No, I am not in a position to answer that question.

NP: Why not?

DAVID GAUKE: In terms of these matters actually first of all it’s not part of my departmental responsibilities but also operational matters such as this are not ones that we put into the public domain.

NP: Okay, we have heard from colleagues in government, Tobias Ellwood one of them suggesting that the best outcome in all this would be that the two faced trial at the Hague. What is your view, where should they end up?

DAVID GAUKE: Look, I think there are a number of options here that we need to consider. What is important is that these people are properly brought to justice. Now, as I say, there are a number of options on that, I think there’ll be a clarity on that in due course but I think we need to consider what our options are. I think the most important thing is in the end that these people are properly brought to justice and that they no longer pose a threat to citizens anywhere in the world.

NP: Would placing them in Guantanamo Bay be the equivalent of being properly brought to justice? I am just wondering as Lord Chancellor what you make of the extra-judicial conditions at Guantanamo Bay, surely no matter the crimes, the heinous crimes of which they’re accused, that not the sort of place you’d want to see anyone with a British passport.

DAVID GAUKE: Well ultimately, as I say, I think they need to be brought properly to justice and that does require, if you like, proper judicial proceedings here.

NP: So not Guantanamo Bay?

DAVID GAUKE: Look, ultimately, as I say, there are various options and I don’t want to be particularly drawn onto that but ultimately, as I say, they need to be brought to justice.

NP: Perhaps the biggest item in your in-tray at the moment is prisons. You are the sixth Justice Secretary since 2010 and it is pretty easy to argue that we have seen no improvements in the prison service since then, what are you going to do differently?

DAVID GAUKE: I think there’s a short term issue and there’s a long term issue. In the short term we’ve got to get to grips in terms of security, there are too many drugs that are getting into prisons, there are already steps being taken to deal with that but I think there’s more we need to do. We also need to ensure that there are adequate, decent conditions and we’ve had examples highlighted in recent weeks where that has not been the case so we’ve got to deal with that and we’ve got to deal with that quickly. In the longer term we also need to make sure that our prison system does properly rehabilitate people. The vast majority of prisoners will leave prison, will go back into the community and we need to take steps to ensure that when they go back into the community they are less likely to reoffend, that they are more able to integrate into society so in the longer term we’ve got to ensure that works properly. My old department was the Department for Work and Pensions, there was a lot of good work about getting work coaches into prisons, to ensure that as people left prison they got into work. I want to see what more we can do on that, what more we can do to ensure that prisoners don’t leave prison where they are homeless, have no money, have no job, still face mental health issues and so on and find themselves reoffending and back in again. That doesn’t do them any good, that doesn’t do wider society any good so we need to address that but first we have to …

NP: With respect Mr Gauke, there is nothing you have just said that we couldn’t have heard from the five chaps that proceeded you in the department. Can we just focus for a second on capacity, now we’ve been promised the decommissioning of the dilapidated Victorian estate, we’ve been promised new accommodation in existing prisons and the only building that has taken place has been in one prison, existing accommodation being expanded. There has only been one Victorian prison decommissioned and that was Holloway and that was refurbished in the 1960s – I mean the government’s record on this is pretty poor.

DAVID GAUKE: Well if you look at what we are doing, actually we’ve got plans for a couple of new prisons to be built, there is actually a new prison in North Wales which is Berwyn, which is expanding and taking on more prisoners. We have stabilised the prison population, we are increasing the number of prison officers, we are taking on an additional two and a half thousand …

NP: Overcrowding is still at 24%.

DAVID GAUKE: Well as I say, we are taking on additional prison officers. I want to, as I say we’ve got to as an immediate priority deal with issues about the drugs getting in, about the mobile phones getting into prisons …

NP: So sorry to interrupt Mr Gauke but all of what you’ve been saying could have been said by any other Justice Secretary that we’ve had on this and other programmes over the past seven years, what are you doing differently about it? You mentioned drugs there, almost a quarter of a ton of drugs were recovered from prisons in 2016 which means the real level of drug intake in our prisons is far, far higher, what are you going to do that’s different?

DAVID GAUKE: Well I’ll be setting out more detailed plans in the not too distant future in terms of this but when we look at what’s happening across the prison estate frankly it’s a mixed picture and in some cases we’ve got a grip of this, it is very successful in terms of stopping the drugs getting in and in other places frankly we’re not as successful and I want to focus on some of those areas and the steps we can take to make it harder to bring drugs in and I’ll set out more details of that in due course. I think we also need to accept that there have been examples, Liverpool and Nottingham for example, where if you like the sheer level of decency, the cleanliness of prisons has not been adequate and I want to make sure that we properly address that because if we don’t address those basics – and that includes discipline in prisons by the way, the number of assaults on prison officers is clearly not acceptable, we need to drive that down – if we can address those basics, I think that then gives us more of an opportunity to go on and address this point about rehabilitation, about the support that is provided if you like across government to ensure that prisoners are less likely to reoffend, more likely to integrate into society in a law abiding way.

NP: Indeed and I think everyone hopes that you can finally get to grips with the basics. I want to turn to Brexit just for a second, specifically the transition period. Do you think that it’s a given that there will be a transition period?

DAVID GAUKE: I think it’s very likely that that will happen, the reason why I say that is because it is in the interests of the United Kingdom and it is in the interests of the European Union. It is the case that we need to finalise a lot of the details on this matter. Of course before Christmas, in December in Brussels, we reached a joint statement on this and we are now in the stages of bringing that together, I hope that we can complete that by the time of the March Council meeting next months but …

NP: There seem to be a lot of sticking points, predominant amongst them freedom of movement for EU nationals and whether or not we have a say on new rules during transition. Why shouldn’t it be a red line for this government that a mechanism allowing us to object to new EU rules during that transition period, I mean that should be a red line shouldn’t it?

DAVID GAUKE: Well you’re right to say that this is one of the issues that we do need to address in the weeks ahead. It is worth bearing in mind that it usually takes a couple of years for EU rules to essentially complete the process and take effect but nonetheless …

NP: That’s not the view of Jacob Rees-Mogg …

DAVID GAUKE: No, no, no, allow me to complete this, but nonetheless you are absolutely right to say that is one of the issues that we need to address but what I would stress is that it is in the interests of the United Kingdom that we reach agreement on that issue and also in the interests of the European Union …

NP: Aren’t you in essence saying, and have been saying for some time, to the business community there will be a transition period in roughly the terms in which we described? That means we have precious little way of compelling the European Union to adopt any of our ideas. The transition period, the blueprint for it, has been designed, will be designed by the European Union and we will simply nod it through.

DAVID GAUKE: Well as I say, an implementation period is in the United Kingdom’s best interests for both people and businesses but it is also in the interests of the European Union and both sides to this recognise that. We, if you like, outlined the shape of that agreement in December and the fact is that there were concessions from both sides in terms of reaching that agreement so I don’t accept your characterisation at all.

NP: I didn’t think that you would but just a very simple question, is a bad transition period better than no transition period?

DAVID GAUKE: Look, we are going to get an implementation period, I am confident of that, and that implementation period will be very good for the UK, it will give us an opportunity to ensure that we don’t have two sets of changes, it will enable us to smoothly leave the European Union, recognising and respecting the result of the referendum and making a success of it and that is what we are determined to do.

NP: David Gauke, lovely to see you, thank you for joining us.

DAVID GAUKE: Thank you.