Sunday with Niall Paterson Interview with Dawn Butler MP Labour

Sunday 4 February 2018

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: It is almost a hundred years since women – well some women – secured the right to vote but as the Weinstein sex scandal and the BBC equal pay row show, the struggle goes on. Labour’s Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities is Dawn Butler and she is here with me in the studio, Ms Butler lovely to see you again.

DAWN BUTLER: Good morning.

NP: As I mentioned, we are soon going to be celebrating that centenary, does it feel to you that we have truly made a hundred years of progress towards equality since then?

DAWN BUTLER: I think we’ve made some progress but it is quite evident that we have a long way to go. A hundred years ago some women fought for the right to vote, ten years later all women got the right to vote and then we had a reduction in the voting age but we have a long way to go before we get full representation in parliament and also before we get full representation of women in all strands of society.

NP: It is all about choices though isn’t it, being able to do what you want to do, not being limited by your class or indeed by your gender so what is your view on the grid girl controversy, a hundred years on from those first votes for women? Shouldn’t those women be allowed to choose the clothes they wear without censorious finger wagging from the left?

DAWN BUTLER: It was a decision that Formula One took in regards to whether they think it’s appropriate in this day and age. I mean my issue was really around the President’s Club and those young girls and women who were attending, they were not attending there to be the plaything of the men who were there and that was my issue. What I also found disappointing is that when Labour introduced the Equalities Act 2010, we had Section 40 in there which is a clause to say that if an employer knows there is risk of women going into a place and it makes it unsafe for them, then they can be held liable and accountable. It was the coalition government that removed that clause and I’m fighting tooth and nail to get this government to reinstate that clause because that protects women and vulnerable people who are working.

NP: But do you see the controversy around the grid girls and the controversy about those women who were abused at the President’s Club – let’s call it what it is, do you see that as all of a piece? The point that some people have made this week, including amongst them is Julia Hartley-Brewer, is that the left will defend to the death the right of a woman to wear a burka but if she chooses to wear a rather more revealing outfit she is a victim who must be protected from herself.

DAWN BUTLER: No, not at all. I don't think anybody is arguing that at all. We argue that women can wear whatever they choose to wear, whatever they feel comfortable in wearing …

NP: Isn’t what the grid girls are doing though? That’s the argument that they make.

DAWN BUTLER: I’m fine with that, they are fine with whatever they want to wear. The issue is whether they are being, as you say, abused or not, whether they are being exploited or abused. They can do a job that they choose to do, that’s fine, no one has got a problem with that at all but it’s where it’s being exploited that’s the issue, not what they wear. Women can wear what they want to wear as long as nobody is telling them what they should wear. So if you turn up to work and they say you have to wear this little black dress, matching knickers and high heels, that is an abuse of power but you can choose …

NP: But isn’t that what the grid girls are being asked though? Because they are being told, they don’t select their own clothes, there is an outfit, there is a uniform and it is a pretty skimpy one at that.

DAWN BUTLER: If they are choosing to wear it, if that’s their decision and they walk out of the house with this is what they want to wear, that’s the right of the woman to wear what she wants to wear. If you are being told you can only wear this and you don’t want to or you were not aware that was going to be the dress code, there’s a problem and we had legislation, that’s the thing that gets me, we had legislation that dealt with this but the coalition government decided to remove it, for what reason? What possible reason?

NP: I mean another area where you are adamant that choice is essential is around transgender issues and you are of the opinion that all-female shortlists should be open to all self-identifying women, why is that?

DAWN BUTLER: Because the Labour party has all-women shortlists, we’re the only party to use all-women shortlists, we made sure that the act was amended so that we can implement this, so that we can see a change in parliament and have seen a phenomenal change in the structure and the make-up of parliament because of all-women shortlists and it is open to all women.

NP: I understand that you, like many other people, to treat someone as a woman if they so identify but why shouldn’t there be, as some people within the Labour party have suggested, some women have suggested, why shouldn’t there be at least a requirement that their legal gender be female?

DAWN BUTLER: Look, all-women shortlists are open to all women and that includes trans-women as well. I mean it is really quite as simple as that to be honest.

NP: So you don’t see the argument that is made by some that actually the simple self-identification, fine but the requirement of having your legal gender as being female, to have a place on these shortlists – and there is competition for places on these shortlists, huge competition.

DAWN BUTLER: Yes, there are and I think this stems from the Gender Recognition Act and the fact that there is supposed to be an amendment to the Act which we are still waiting for, to start the consultation and have a talk about what needs to be amended, how we modernise the language and all of that stuff. That is very different from all-women shortlists. There is talk about other things around safe spaces, there are lots of different areas that need to be discussed and ironed out but our policy is quite clear and it has been clear from the very beginning to be honest, it’s not something that has really been a huge issue and we have had all-women shortlists for decades now.

NP: You have said in the past that you don’t think Theresa May is a feminist, do you think that are any Conservatives that could be called feminists?

DAWN BUTLER: Oh yes, of course there are and the reason why …

NP: Name me, name me some, name me some.

DAWN BUTLER: I’ll qualify why I said Theresa May is not a feminist, because I’ve seen 86% of this government’s cuts fall on the shoulders on women, I’ve seen the refuges closed down because of lack of funding, I’ve seen areas where women were making progress now being held back because of Theresa May’s government. It is not just enough to be a woman and to call yourself a feminist, you also have to help progress the movement, take the next steps in regard to women’s rights and women’s equality.

NP: Let’s talk about what could potentially be a very big next step for the Labour party. Baroness Chakrabarti said this just a few months ago regarding the leadership, “As far as I’m concerned, the next time it’s a woman. My very strong preference is that the Labour party should say to itself it’s time we had a woman after Corbyn.” As we head towards the centenary of some women getting the vote would you agree with that?

DAWN BUTLER: I’d love to see a woman leader of the Labour party. I mean we did have a woman leader of the Labour party, we have had a woman Prime Minister but more importantly I want to see a Labour government and I want to see a Labour government as soon as possible because the damage that this Conservative government is doing to the country sometimes feels like it is going to take a lot of work and effort to undo the damage.

NP: But wouldn’t you concede that as things stand the Labour party itself has some very real problems with sexism. Claire Kober resigning as leader of Haringey council last week, this week I should say, citing sexism and bullying, what’s the party going to do about that?

DAWN BUTLER: Claire has done a phenomenal job in Haringey, she turned around the council and …

NP: Is the party investigating what happened in Haringey?

DAWN BUTLER: I think it’s important that I praise the work that Claire has done, it’s important that I do that. Any issues of sexual harassment, racism, bullying, the Labour party has firm robust policies and it’s important that anybody who feels they have been discriminated against in any way reports it so they can go through the structure so that it can be dealt with in the right and proper way.

NP: She stepped down as leader of Haringey Council so why is the party not investigating this?

DAWN BUTLER: If there’s an investigation, I don't know whether Claire has reported an investigation of sexual harassment or bullying, I hope that she has because I think it’s important because if she has been sexually harassed or bullied we have to root those people out. Jeremy has said time and time again, there’s no place in the Labour party for anybody who harasses anybody for any reason whatsoever so if she is, she needs to report it and it needs to be dealt with and I for one will be ensuring that it’s dealt with properly because we have robust policies to make sure that this happens.

NP: It is not just Labour women who are barracked at public meetings, what did you make of the way that Jacob Rees-Mogg was targeted by self-confessed supporters of Jeremy Corbyn? Do you see any link there between what happened there and John McDonnell’s repeating those colleagues comments about lynching Esther McVey, calling for direct action against all Tory MPs?

DAWN BUTLER: Jacob Rees-Mogg loves free speech, he promotes free speech all the time and he went up to talk to these people and I’ve seen quite a number of videos from different angles and they seem to be having a conversation before somebody came from behind Jacob Rees-Mogg in a white shirt and attacked a woman, which I found very strange and unsavoury and wrong. I think the important thing here is the abuse that politicians receive. Free speech is one thing, having a disagreement with people is another thing, that is fine but when it comes to abuse that’s a real issue. I found out this week that in my office, my office manager now says he is the only one who will open the mail because we get abuse coming through and he doesn’t want any of our interns or anyone else to read it and I just think we do have to tackle this issue of abuse.

NP: Dawn Butler, lovely to see you, thanks very much for joining us again on the programme.