Sunday with Niall Paterson Interview with James Brokenshire Northern Ireland Secretary

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: First, the issue of the Irish border was almost the undoing of the Brexit deal and whilst a deal is done for now, it seems the phrase ‘full alignment’ might mean very different things to different people. The Irish government said it got all the reassurances it was after, the DUP has given it a cautious welcome but are they really on board? Joining me now is the Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire. A very good morning to you.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: A very good morning to you as well.

NP: So what was your involvement in the process of getting to the stage of not necessarily a deal but a memorandum of understanding? Some of my colleagues at the Belfast Telegraph were rather scathing about your involvement.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well I’m not going into the why’s and wherefore’s and all of the detail of the negotiations, save that yes, obviously doing my part as Northern Ireland Secretary, supporting the Prime Minister and I think her steely resolve, her leadership, her determination to get this outcome, to get through phase one and see that sufficient progress, that is absolutely what we needed to do so that we can now move on to phase two, those trade talks and, indeed, the implementation period which I think is about certainty, about giving that reassurance to business across the UK, but I think it was the Prime Minister’s real resolve and leadership that I certainly saw close at hand over the course of this last week that made the difference and has put us in this position that we are now.

NP: But one presumes, in fact on detects your hand in getting the DUP on side with, as I mentioned, a few reservations, but shouldn’t you as Northern Ireland Secretary have seen their objections coming? Were you a little bit asleep at the wheel on this one?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: No, I think as the Prime Minister said on Monday, the text was not agreed at that point so therefore how we needed to, yes, make further improvements and that is precisely what we did during the course of the week, giving that reassurance of Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom, constitutionally, economically, underlining very firmly that we are leaving the customs union, we are leaving the single market but again that role of the ability for Northern Ireland to be integrated within the United Kingdom, its very firm place in terms of trade, in terms of business and very firmly in terms of its constitutional rights.

NP: Okay but not keeping the DUP on board did to an extent put Theresa May’s government at risk, if we hadn’t been able to move on to phase two frankly that might have posed a greater risk. Did Theresa May call the DUP’s bluff in an attempt to save her job?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: No, I think what we have secured is the protection of the common travel area, upholding the Good Friday Agreement, really reaffirming Northern Ireland’s constitutional status. That’s actually what’s come through in this text, about our ability to move through into phase two, to get those solutions that means there isn’t that hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and also restrictions east/west, knowing that the majority of trade for the island of Ireland as a whole, whether Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland, is actually with Great Britain in that context and therefore how that is just so important.

NP: But in terms of the border issue, no hard border as you mentioned, that certainly keeps the nationalists happy, no border in the Irish Sea – that keeps the Unionists happy but those positions are mutually exclusive, there isn’t a solution by my reckoning. I mean isn’t the truth of the matter that all you have done is find a form of words to keep both sides happy for now until we actually get into the nitty-gritty of trying to work out how to deal with this?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: I don’t accept that and certainly if you look at the paper that we published in August, that very firmly set out the approach that we …

NP: I have, I have.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: … wished to take and I think it’s worth recognising – and I’m sure we’ll discuss this issue over alignment – that actually when you look at the paper itself, what we see is our ability to achieve these outcomes through the Free Trade Agreement, that bold and ambitious Free Trade Agreement that we wished to secure or unique solutions to deal with the unique circumstances and then finally, as that reserve option in relation to any agreement, the issue of alignment and so it needs to be looked at in that chronology in terms of how we secure this, how we do have those solutions that deal with the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland but also not seeing a border emerging between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

NP: Okay but for viewers who are lucky enough not to have had to wade through the government’s position paper on all of this, what is the solution? Be explicit about this, what can be the solution that provides no hard border on the island of Ireland, no border in the Irish Sea and at the same time brings Northern Ireland out of the customs union and the single market?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well we set out two proposals in relation to how we would deal with the issue of tariffs, how we would deal with those sorts of elements in relation to customs, whether that be a new customs partnership where we would effectively apply a similar or the same tariff that the EU currently applies to goods coming into the EU or a highly streamlined approach with effectively exemptions that would apply for small business, are still remaining within for example the arrangements where you could export goods and transit through to the EU as well, a range of issues that actually deal with some of the real life practicalities. The point is, we’ve not been able to discuss this as yet, that’s why it has just been so important to move into phase two, while we said that all along and we now have the opportunity to do so.

NP: But do you understand why to an extent some of this prevarication – fair enough we haven’t been able to have those discussions just yet but this type of discussion leads many people to believe that actually the Brexit that we voted for we are not going to get and the reason we’re not going to get it is the Good Friday Agreement?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: No, I don’t accept that. I think that yes, this was always going to be one of the most challenging, difficult issues that we faced during the course of the Brexit negotiations, absolutely. That’s why we focused on this very firmly with the paper that was published in the summer to set out some of those objectives, to set out some of those ideas. That’s why we wanted to make that progress, the sufficient progress that we have now made to get into this, to get into that discussion. Yes, to deal with those issues perhaps of alignment and examples that you could give around that, that I am happy to discuss this morning as to how that could be achieved but it is about that positive objective of Northern Ireland being within the UK, seeing the UK as that whole and moving forward in that fashion.

NP: What has been agreed, is it binding? Do we have to move forward in exactly the terms as described in this document?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well paragraph five of the document underlines that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed so it is about how we …

NP: So it is almost reassuring then that the Irish government has been crowing about this but you could literally tear them up and move on?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well we want to find a positive solution to this, that is why it is about moving into the second phase of the negotiations, actually securing that positive agreement to deal with the issues that are set out in the document that has been published this week and actually giving effect to our desire, it’s not just what the Irish government wants to do, it’s what we want to do, that successful outcome for Northern Ireland and not seeing Ireland affected.

NP: But in terms of the full alignment with the European Union, with the rules of the customs union and the single market if there is no deal, we suggest that there are sort of six cross border issues on which we would see full alignment. The European Union say it is 142, which is it?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Actually the 142 number is analysis that we have undertaken of the issues that need to be dealt with during the second phase of the negotiations. Now that goes much, much broader, that is about things like trade, it is about police cooperation, it is about important issues such as the single electricity market so it is actually a list that we ourselves have worked through in order to prepare properly for the second phase of those discussions. So actually it is about the work that has been put in place already to make sure that we can make a success of this.

NP: But given what you have just said about how nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, I am wondering what the point of this document actually is. Michael Gove has been saying today that if the electorate doesn’t like the deal they can vote for more but on that basis isn’t the opposite true? That actually if the public fancied having a rather closer relationship with the European Union after we come out, we could vote for greater convergence?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: I think the simple thing on that is that one government cannot bind a future government, that is the basic tenet of our democracy but the point of this document …

NP: That does mean that if we had an election we could have a Labour party that was advocating far closer ties to the European Union, we can have a rather closer relationship with the EU than many of those who voted for Brexit would expect.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: No government can bind another government, that is the simple point of our democracy as I’ve said but the point from this document that’s been published this week, all of the discussions and negotiations that have taken place over phase one is not about that type of situation and second guessing, it is about reaching an agreement – a free trade agreement, a bold and ambitious free trade agreement where we are able to see the UK having that positive future, how we are actually moving forward in that way. So this first phase, those commitments on the issues over citizen’s rights, around Northern Ireland and indeed the exit bill itself financially, how that matters in actually taking us forward and why this week was just so important.

NP: Why on earth have you and your cabinet colleagues not arrived at a conclusion as to what the end state should be, what our relationship with the EU should be at the end of this process?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well I think that the Prime Minister has set out very clearly through her Florence speech …

NP: She hasn’t.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: … through her Lancaster House speech on how the objectives are in terms of what we need to achieve on yes, that trade agreement and indeed the deep and special partnership between ourselves and our European colleagues.

NP: You can’t yet tell me whether or not you as a government prefer that kind of rather closer link with the European Union where we follow in terms of the regulatory framework or if we go massively away from them and that is the fundamental point and you guys haven’t got an answer to that.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Let’s give you an example on things like animal health and food standards, we are clear that we are not suddenly going to be lowering all that down. Indeed in the paper that we published we were clear on that, that alignment on those sorts of issues was something that we saw as important in respect of the integrated agricultural sector on the island of Ireland, so there is not going to be suddenly some sudden shift in relation to this because ultimately on that day that we leave we are aligned, we are absolutely …

NP: But you only have to open the papers on a daily basis to see that there are real differences of opinion with the Cabinet as to where we should be at the end of this process. It’s not just the fact that you haven’t had that meeting, we were told that there were sector by sector impact assessments on the effect that Brexit would have on the …

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: That’s not what David Davis says, he said there was analysis that was taken across how the regulatory impact of this would be to our approach.

NP: We know now that there are no impact assessments, why are there no impact assessments?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well as David Davis has been very clear to the House of Commons and indeed to the Select Committee this week, it is about how the analysis of individual sectors to inform what the regulation is, to inform our approach on the negotiation that we’ve had now and actually the deeper negotiation to come. It’s not been about some of these financial things that people presented in relation to …

NP: But it strikes me that the first thing that you would want to do before extricating yourself from the European Union is work out what possible effects the different end states might have. I mean it’s not as if you guys don’t pump out impact assessments on pretty much everything – the impact on cultural heritage of Phase 2a of HS2, the impact of losing sat navs for five days, you’ve done an impact assessment on that, the impact of measures in the Bus Services Bill – you think all of those pieces of legislation deserve an impact assessment but you don’t think us leaving the European Union does?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Well that’s about individual pieces of legislation you are talking about her. What we are saying is it’s about negotiation, that yes, the Department for Exiting the EU has published …

NP: The impact of a governance programme?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: … has published a great deal of information to the Select Committee on the base data, the base information but the point is that the analysis is about what the impact of regulation is, how we then inform and know which bits we need to change, which bits we need to negotiate, that analysis to inform that negotiation and why we’ve been very clear that we’re not going to publish things that would affect that, that would impact our negotiating ability to get the best possible deal for the UK. That’s the approach that we have taken and I think that’s the right approach.

NP: So we should have impact assessments at some point in the future?

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: It’s not about impact assessments, it’s about analysis to inform our negotiation, getting that positive deal, actually getting into this phase two which is why we will be having discussions at Cabinet to inform our negotiating approach for that phase two deal and having that bright positive future that I know we can achieve.

NP: James Brokenshire, many thanks for being with us.

JAMES BROKENSHIRE: Thanks Niall.