Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Fabian Picardo, Gibraltar Chief Minister, 16.07.17

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: The state visit by the Spanish Royal Family this week threatened to become a bit of a diplomatic nightmare with MPs threatening to storm out of parliament if the King used his speech to stake a claim for Gibraltar. Now that was very elegantly sidestepped with only a fleeting mention of the territory but the battle over who controls the Rock is going to be a big part of Brexit negotiations and we’re joined in the studio now by Gibraltar’s Chief Minister, Fabian Picardo. Hello, thank you very much, it’s great to see you in the studio this morning.

FABIAN PICARDO: Good morning, it’s a pleasure to be here.

SR: Now we talked a bit there about the speech by the King of Spain in which he mentioned these ‘new arrangements’ for Gibraltar. Have you got any idea what they could be?

FABIAN PICARDO: Well they are unlikely to be any new arrangements in relation to Gibraltar’s sovereignty if that is the issue because it is very clear, we have a decision of the British people to leave the European Union that is going to require us to change our relationship with the EU. Gibraltar has a border with the European Union, a land border with Spain, which is also a border with the Schengen Zone, that’s not the case in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and there will need to be new arrangements to handle the number of people that cross that frontier every day and come to Gibraltar to work, Gibraltarians access to the European Union but there is not going to be any new arrangements in relation to the sovereignty of Gibraltar, that is going to remain 100% British because if we have to respect the result of the Brexit referendum, we must also respect the result of the referendum in Gibraltar in 1967, 50 years ago, when we chose to remain entirely British and 15 years ago in 2002, the second referendum which was on joint sovereignty when the people of Gibraltar said thank you but no thank you, 99% of us want to continue staying entirely British.

SR: I admire your optimism and your certainty there but the one thing we do know, one of the few things we know about the EU’s negotiating position is that they offered or they want to give Spain a veto over a trade deal. I mean how do you feel about that?

FABIAN PICARDO: Well they have suggested that they will allow Spain to determine whether any new trade arrangements which might be entered into between the UK and the EU, we think that will not be just one deal but will be a number of different deals, whether those should apply to Gibraltar or not will be subject to the acceptance by Spain in a bilateral agreement between Spain and the United Kingdom. That’s probably contrary to EU law because those agreements are likely to deal with things that have gone outside of the control of national parliaments, although national parliaments will have vetoes it will be a veto as to the acceptance of those deals but not of the application of those deals, in particular in the area of services. There is a case called the Singapore Case recently in the Courts of Justice which says that those types of deals are for the Commission to do. So look, I think it is really very bloody minded indeed to say that Spain, that has a specific territorial claim to Gibraltar, should have anything other than the rights that the treaties give her and that the Commission should pretend and the Council should pretend to create a new right is something that the people of Gibraltar won’t accept and the British government is on record as saying they won’t do a trade deal that excludes Gibraltar if it’s relevant to Gibraltar.

SR: Are you worried if it means getting a better deal with the EU the British government could effectively sell you down the river?

FABIAN PICARDO: We’ve seen it before, we saw it in 1987 in relation to the exclusion of Gibraltar’s airport from the Open Skies agreements that were done in those days, air liberalisation as it was known, but I’ve had cast iron assurances from David Davis, the Secretary of State, I’ve no reason to doubt, he told me about not doing a trade deal if it didn’t include Gibraltar if it was relevant to Gibraltar will be the case going forward. This is a fluid moment, it’s a moment of aspiration when we try and do the best possible deal for the whole of the United Kingdom including Gibraltar and success will mean Gibraltar is included in those trade arrangements where they are relevant. If we are not included because Spain and therefore the EU have managed to exclude us, then that will mean failure on the part of the British negotiating team and I bet on success not on failure.

SR: You bet on success not failure but at the same time it does feel looking at how the UK’s negotiations have gone so far that they have backed down on some things like the timing of negotiations and so on, how confident should you be?

FABIAN PICARDO: Look, I’m the backbone of this negotiation for Gibraltar and the backbone is made of limestone rock, it’s not going to be easy to buckle on that. We can have the War of the Summer, the War of the Autumn or the War of the Winter if you like on that, Gibraltar is not going to change its position. We were all in favour of remaining in the European Union, 96% of us voted to remain but look, it’s our obligation now to energetically and enthusiastically now pursue the result of the referendum and deliver a successful Brexit. We’re not going to get in the way of Brexit but we’re not going to be the victims of Brexit, that’s for sure.

SR: Now when I heard that you were coming on the programme there was one thing that I did want to show you because we’ve done a lot of interviews over the course of the programme and one of us perhaps surprised us by getting so much reaction to what was said and that was an interview with Lord Howard, Michael Howard. If we can just had a quick listen to what he said with regards to Gibraltar.

LORD HOWARD: Thirty five years ago this week another woman Prime Minister sent a task force halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish speaking country and I’m absolutely certain that our current Prime Minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar.

SR: Strong words there from Lord Howard, it seemed to kick off lots of theories about the fact that he was almost declaring war with Spain. Is that helpful, that kind of intervention?

FABIAN PICARDO: Well Lord Howard is a long-time friend of Gibraltar, when he was leader of the Conservative party we had the attempts by the Labour government, and I’m a socialist Labour leader, to dilute the sovereignty of Gibraltar with joint sovereignty with Spain, Mr Blair who you are interviewing later was responsible for that. So we have a lot of affection for Mr Howard and I don't think he was doing anything other than reflecting the passion with which the British people defend the right of the people of Gibraltar, as they did the right of the people of Argentina and people around the world, to determine their own future, not by force of arms but by force of argument and persuasion that in the 21st century this is the only way in which people can determine their political future, in the ballot box, whether that’s choosing Brexit or it is choosing to remain British so I think there was an attempt to extrapolate from what Lord Howard said the most belligerent potential interpretation which I think was unfair on the man, but all power to you for having got those words out from him.

SR: Mischief making then in your view. You mentioned there the fact that we are interviewing Tony Blair later, we are going to see the full interview with Mr Blair later on. In it he suggested that it was possible that Brexit might not happen and that in his view it was necessary that Brexit doesn’t happen. Now Gibraltar as you said voted very strongly to remain in the European Union, do you think there should be some flexibility shall we say on whether Brexit happens at all?

FABIAN PICARDO: If I may so, Mr Blair’s history with Gibraltar, for the reasons I’ve just set out, is not the best. He was saying in 2002 that Gibraltar had to hand over half of its sovereignty so if you can allow me to be a bit sceptical about what Mr Blair says now but I’ll put it in this context. I think Mr Blair is still a very good communicator, he incites passions in people and if he has a view I think it is right that he should put it and he should put it to the British people that Brexit is going to be very difficult indeed. Now whether we have a successful Brexit or not, Brexit is not going to be easy, even a successful Brexit is going to be very hard indeed. It has hijacked most of my time since our last general election in Gibraltar, it is a parliament consuming event. Now that doesn’t mean it has to be a bad thing for the United Kingdom and Gibraltar over a period of five to ten years but people have to be prepared for what Brexit would mean, even if very successful, in the immediate moment and that is not going to be a bed of roses.

SR: But do you think it will definitely happen though?

FABIAN PICARDO: Look, if the engagement with the European Union is serious engagement then we can extricate ourselves from those treaties but if it is not serious engagement, and some of what we heard from Brexiteers during the course of the referendum campaign was not serious about how you need to engage with the European Union in order to remove yourself from the treaties, that no deal and we’ll walk away – that is not serious, that is not where politics is, that is not the relationship that the United Kingdom has as a mature democracy.

SR: The Prime Minister said that about no deal as well, walking away.

FABIAN PICARDO: And it may be that there are circumstances, extreme circumstances where the sides are not able to come to terms, but that can’t be what it is that we talk about every day and I think David Davis is now doing a job of real engagement, of getting down into the detail and if you do that you might be able to deliver a successful Brexit but I must say that Mr Blair’s job today should be to support what the British people have determined, even those of us who didn’t make that choice are engaged in trying to deliver a successful Brexit. Let’s try and make the best of it and let’s see where we get to.

SR: Okay, thank you very much for coming on the show.

FABIAN PICARDO: Thank you very much.