Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Justine Greening MP, Education Secretary and Equalities Minister, 23.07.17

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: Now should it be easier to choose your sex in the eyes of the law? The government says yes and it is planning to tear up the rules to make gender reassignment process far more straightforward. Well earlier this week Sophie did sit down with the Equalities Minister and of course the Education Secretary, Justine Greening.

JUSTINE GREENING: Today we’re announcing that in the autumn we’ll be launching a consultation on reforming the Gender Recognition Act. At the moment if you want to change your gender it’s a very complicated process, it’s quite intrusive as well and it’s very bound up in going to see your GP and a whole medical process that then gets kicked off. What we want to do is try and streamline the process, make it easier, demedicalise it and make it less intrusive and we’ll be consulting on how to do that in the autumn. I think 50 years after we began the decriminalisation of homosexuality, although we’ve had huge progress on LGBT rights, there are still areas like this where we think we can do more and we want to take those steps.

SOPHIE RIDGE: Some people may have concerns listening to this about making it easier, making it quicker to change your gender, I mean for most people this will be the biggest decision you make in your life so isn’t it right that these things take a bit of time?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think it’s about helping it to take place more effectively. We know that in other countries, for example the Republic of Ireland or Malta, they have a very different approach on this, it is much more about a legal change of your identity that’s then followed by the medical process that people go through.

SR: So would you like to see the United Kingdom having the same process as the Republic of Ireland or Malta where people can effectively self-identify their gender?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think it’s one of the things that we need to be looking at but the bottom line is at the moment we have a very complex lengthy process, it is time to streamline that, make it more straightforward, to demedicalise it and to stop treating people changing their gender as if it’s some medical problem that they need fixing, actually this is a choice that people are making and we need to try and make that choice more straightforward in a way than it currently is.

SR: Is there a wider issue as well about the way that we look at gender stereotypes in our society? If we were a bit more open minded about what it means to be a man or a woman perhaps that should be the focus rather than looking at the gender that someone identifies as.

JUSTINE GREENING: I think probably society has never focused less on people’s gender, I think we’ve seen huge steps forward and I’ve fought for women’s rights for many years. This week we’ve seen of course the gender pay gap reporting from the BBC which has caused a huge debate, quite rightly, about closing that gap, that’s precisely why we have brought through those requirements for big organisations to start reporting but I do think what you are seeing is gender equality steadily percolating through the workplace, through our society. It is great that after this election we’ve never had more female MPs, but when you look at that and diversity more generally it is something we still need to keep pushing for and on LGBT rights we have made a lot of steps forward over the last 50 years, of course same sex marriage going through parliament was a massive watershed moment for our country but there is still a long way to go.

SR: Let’s talk a bit more about the gender pay gap that was revealed in that BBC report, were you shocked to see the discrepancy between what male and female workers at the BBC were paid?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think it’s impossible not to be shocked at just how different some of those differentials were and of course this is the whole reason why we brought forward these regulations because as much as anything else, transparency is demonstrating to organisations that it’s a reputational issue and that’s why they should be fixing these things. It happens to be good business as well, we know that companies that make the most of all their workforce and don’t have barriers to women coming back into the workforce at senior levels for example if they’ve had children, being able to continue their careers, all these things are signs of companies that tend to do better but actually it’s the right thing to do as well and for us as a government we wanted to work with business and many businesses have changed for the better but the gender pay gap reporting is one way that we can really shine a light on the companies that are doing a good job but also the organisations that have got a very, very long way to go and I think the BBC found out this week that its gender pay gap reporting was really quite staggering to many people and they think …

SR: Is it an example of sexism in the workplace do you think?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think it’s already kicked off a debate for the BBC about these differentials and the steps that they will now need to look at taking to close them but it is very hard to justify some of the big gaps that we saw.

SR: We were talking a bit earlier of course about gay rights as well which feels fit and proper to do at a time when it is the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality. As someone who is a gay woman yourself, do you think it’s time that churches allowed same sex couples to marry inside them if they want to?

JUSTINE GREENING: Well this was a massive debate when we brought forward the Same Sex Bill. I think it’s quite important that we recognise that for many churches, including the Church of England, actually that was not something they were yet willing to have in their own churches. Other churches like the Quakers for example were, so I respect that those faiths will have a debate about the right way for them to be part of a country that has passed legislation allowing same sex marriage. I think when you look at the Social Attitudes Survey data that came out a couple of weeks ago, two thirds of people saying they think there is nothing wrong with a same sex relationship but I think it is important …

SR: But what’s your sense rather than the Social Attitudes Survey, what do you think?

JUSTINE GREENING: Well I think it is important that the church in a way keeps up and is part of a modern country. I wouldn’t prescribe to them how they should deal with that but I do think we are living in a country where people broadly recognise that attitudes are in a different place now to where they were many, many years ago. We have allowed same sex marriage, that is a massive step forward for the better and for me, I think people do want to see our major faiths keep with modern attitudes in our country.

SR: One political party who may not be keeping up with political attitudes as you would see them are the DUP, your new political bedfellows. How relaxed are you about their attitudes towards people who are homosexual or lesbian?

JUSTINE GREENING: Well I think it is important to say that we absolutely did not agree with them on those sorts of views. We have done a deal with them in order to be able to work effectively as a government and I think that’s important, I think that’s what people wanted us to do after the election was to get on with the business of government but it doesn’t mean that we agree with the DUP on every aspect of policy.

SR: Are you comfortable with that deal?

JUSTINE GREENING: I am because I think people do want us to get on with government and I think in the context of delivering on Brexit it’s really important that we do that but it doesn’t mean that we have to agree with every single agenda item that the DUP have and we certainly don’t in relation to LGBT rights. We have been clear that there will be absolutely no backsliding on LGBT rights in this government.

SR: So how does it make you feel to be allied to a party where one of their MPs says he finds gay people repulsive?

JUSTINE GREENING: Well I think it’s important that we continue to have a debate with people who have those views, they are not of course views that I agree one iota. I think that’s a debate that’s going on in Northern Ireland, as it is actually in Ireland and that’s a country where they may actually have their own referendum on same sex marriage next year but I think it’s important that we keep that debate going and in a funny way, the deal that we’ve got with the DUP on having a functioning government is actually shining a spotlight on these issues all over again I think in a fresh way and from my perspective it’s a chance for us to debate them but to try and debate them and get some further progress in the whole of the UK and I think that should include Northern Ireland.

SR: Now you’ve announced more money for schools this week but it is coming from other areas of the education budget, things like school sports for example, sports facilities. Is this just a sticking plaster on a gaping wound when it comes to the funding of schools?

JUSTINE GREENING: I don't think so. We’ve got record funding going into our schools and I’ve announced another £1.3 billion that will be going into schools in 2018/19. I think that’s really important and actually we are doing it by working harder in the department to run ourselves effectively. Actually I also announced a doubling of the PE and sports premium that will be going into schools to help them do more sports for our young people and children, not less. So it’s important that we get the investment right and that’s what my announcement was all about and it’s also about making sure it is fairly spread across schools in our country but we shouldn’t lose sight of the equally important fact which is that school standards are going up and are schools are getting better.

SR: One of the really hot potato issues at the moment when it comes to education is the public sector pay. Teachers, like other public sector workers, have endured years of having their pay frozen or capped, do you think it is time that they had a substantial pay rise?

JUSTINE GREENING: Well the teacher’s pay review board actually said that we could stay within our 1% cap but within that it did actually suggest some flexibility for heads in terms of giving up to a 2% rise. I accepted those recommendations because they seem sensible to me.

SR: A couple of weeks ago I went into one London school where people were talking about not being paid enough, they could never afford to buy a house because their pay wasn’t going up enough, do you have any sympathy for those teachers?

JUSTINE GREENING: I think as a government one of the things we’ve really focused on is on making sure that the people who are in lower paid roles and in lower paid jobs, that we have really helped them not just on things like fuel duty being frozen etc but also we’ve tried to make sure they get to keep more of what they’re earning so increasing the personal allowance has taken millions of people out of tax altogether, it’s given a tax cut to tens of millions of people and if you look at it in the context of somebody who on a salary of say £23, £24,0000, it’s been the equivalent of 4% equivalent pay rise overall so you are absolutely right to talk about the pay cap we’ve had and making sure that public sector pay remains competitive and that’s why I’ve accepted the recommendations of my independent pay review board.

SR: Before you go, I’m keen to talk to you about the Conservative party because of course you lost that majority at the general election and just when you thought things couldn’t get any worse it seems that the Cabinet is tearing itself apart. Why have so many people got it in for Philip Hammond, the Chancellor?

JUSTINE GREENING: Well I think there’s been lots of chatter through the papers but I think that any sensible person in our party, and I have talked to a lot of our backbenchers, knows that what the public expect us to do is to get on with delivering on Brexit and a smart deal for Britain as we leave the EU …

SR: It’s a bit of a distraction though isn’t it when you have got Cabinet ministers openly leaking to papers? We had a whole succession of stories about what the Chancellor thought on everything from female train drivers to pay in the public sector.

JUSTINE GREENING: Yes and indeed Cabinet discussions should be had in private and I think people want to see all of us getting on with our jobs and that’s precisely what I’m doing. For me as someone who came through our state school system and would have achieved nothing without my education, I think it’s vital that we absolutely focus on raising up standards in schools and that’s what people expect me to do and they expect other Cabinet ministers to be getting with their jobs too.

NP: Sophie talking to the Education Secretary, Justine Greening there.