The Battle for Number Ten 29.05.17 Interview with Jeremy Corbyn

SKY NEWS – THE BATTLE FOR NUMBER TEN – 20.30 – 29.05.17

PART TWO: JEREMY CORBYN INTERVIEW

JEREMY PAXMAN: Jeremy Corbyn, in eleven days’ time you might be Prime Minister, people are entitled to know about you aren’t they?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, I’m looking forward to it as well.

JP: Good. Are you frustrated that so many of your core ideas, your basic principles didn’t make it into this manifesto?

JEREMY CORBYN: Oh come on, I’m glad you got it by the way, it’s a really good…

JP: I had to read it too.

JEREMY CORBYN: Well I helped to write it!

JP: Yes, but it doesn’t include key things that you believe in.

JEREMY CORBYN: This manifesto is a product of the views of the Labour party, of party conference decisions and of the views put forward by individuals in the Shadow Cabinet but this manifesto fundamentally …

JP: You persuade the Cabinet, the Shadow Cabinet …

JEREMY CORBYN: Can I just finish what …?

JP: No.

JEREMY CORBYN: Oh, come on, give us a chance!

JP: You persuade the Shadow Cabinet to accept your basic principle which you have adhered to for the whole of your adult life that there should be nuclear disarmament. You promise in this to renew Trident.

JEREMY CORBYN: That was a conference decision by the Labour party and as the leader of the party I accept the democracy of our party and in answer to the questions put earlier I made the point that as Prime Minister I would do all I can to bring about a nuclear free world because I’m horrified at the very idea … I’m horrified at the very idea of a nuclear attack …

JP: You promised to renew a nuclear weapon, it’s morally right?

JEREMY CORBYN: Listen, it’s there in our manifesto because our conference voted for it, I have to accept ….

JP: Do you think it is morally right?

JEREMY CORBYN: Can I finish? Can I finish? What I want to see …

JP: I’m asking if you think it is morally right.

JEREMY CORBYN: What I want to see is a nuclear free world.

JP: Everybody wants to see that.

JEREMY CORBYN: I’m not so sure about that.

JP: I’m asking you is it morally right to renew a nuclear deterrent?

JEREMY CORBYN: That is a decision that has been taken, we will work for a nuclear free world, we will work through the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty to achieve that, that is surely something that’s well worth doing.

JP: A number of your other core beliefs do make it into this manifesto don’t they? About nationalising the Royal Mail for example or the railways or energy companies or water companies. Why not banks?

JEREMY CORBYN: Some of our banks are privately owned as it is actually.

JP: You said you have always believed that banks should be publicly owned.

JEREMY CORBYN: There are some banks that are publicly owned, we will be promoting building societies, co-operatives and we will be promoting a National Investment Bank which won’t be a lending bank, it will be an investment bank, and that is an important part of it and …

JP: But you believe in public ownership of retail banks.

JEREMY CORBYN: And an important part of directing investment in this country. Of the retail banks, RBS is largely publicly owned, there’s a public stake in most of the banks and that we will keep.

JP: I always favour banks being in public ownership – you said that in 2013.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes …

JP: So you do?

JEREMY CORBYN: I did say that.

JP: It doesn’t get into the manifesto does it?

JEREMY CORBYN: Jeremy, what we seem to be struggling with here is an understanding of a process that brings about a manifesto.

JP: No, what I’m struggling with here is how much this represents what you believe.

JEREMY CORBYN: I am not a dictator who writes things to tell people what to do, this is a product of a process in our party, that’s why I was elected leader of our party, to give a voice to the members and those who are affiliated to us.

JP: All right, let’s take another aspect of it. You say you’ll freeze benefits for three years. You will?

JEREMY CORBYN: No, what we said is we’ll put two billion into the benefits system per year in order to …

JP: No, that’s tax credits.

JEREMY CORBYN: In order to reduce the effects. We will also end the indignity of the …

JP: Will you free benefits for three years?

JEREMY CORBYN: Benefits will be paid of course, benefits will be uprated…

JP: Of course they’ll be paid.

JEREMY CORBYN: … and will be uprated of course and they will be …

JP: So they won’t be frozen?

JEREMY CORBYN: And there will be a higher living wage as I’ve outlined which will of course mean that those benefits that are paid for people in work, and indeed the majority of benefits go to people in work and not out of work, will probably reduce.

JP: I’m asking you whether they’ll be frozen.

JEREMY CORBYN: No, they’re not going to be frozen because they’ll be uprated every year as they should be.

JP: Thank you. What about money for the security services? How can we take that seriously when your Shadow Chancellor was photographed holding a letter which called for the abolition of MI5, the abolition of Special Branch and the disarming of the police?

JEREMY CORBYN: We have made it very clear that we will provide more police, this government has taken 20,000 police officers off our streets, we’ll … let me finish, we’ll put 10,000 more on our streets. We also said quite clearly …

JP: How can we believe that when the Shadow Chancellor believes in disbanding MI5 and the Special Branch?

JEREMY CORBYN: The Shadow Chancellor is the one who signed off that pledge in the manifesto.

JP: So he says one thing one day and one thing another day?

JEREMY CORBYN: John McDonnell supports the need for more police officers. John McDonnell also supports …

JP: But he still believes in abolishing MI5?

JEREMY CORBYN: He also accepts the need for the accountability to parliament of our security services which is important but he also accepts, as I do, the need to have security services that do protect us. Manchester is a good example and I think when all the inquiries have been completed in Manchester I think we need to look at those needs.

JP: So he signs letters which call for the abolition of MI5 and Special Branch and the rest of it but when it comes to the manifesto he is perfectly happy to sign off on more police officers and doubtless more money for MI5.

JEREMY CORBYN: What you’re going to see with John McDonnell is a Chancellor that looks at the needs of the country, looks at the needs of the people of this country and invests in our future and not hands money away in tax relief to big corporations and at the top end of our society.

JP: There is nothing in this manifesto about getting rid of the monarchy which is another thing you believe in isn’t it?

JEREMY CORBYN: Look, there’s nothing in there because we’re not going to do it.

JP: But you do believe in it don’t you?

JEREMY CORBYN: Listen, it’s not on anybody’s agenda, it’s certainly not on my agenda and do you know what, I had a very nice chat with the Queen.

JP: But you don’t like her do you? You don’t like what she represents.

JEREMY CORBYN: We got along absolutely fine and I don't think she should be brought into a political discussion.

JP: Any human being anywhere can have a nice conversation with anybody but you do believe in the institution of monarchy do you?

JEREMY CORBYN: Look, I believe in a democracy and we live in a democracy. We have a titular head of state as the monarch but without political power.

JP: When the Queen’s reign comes to an end should we call stumps on the whole thing then, call it a day?

JEREMY CORBYN: Look, the law is there and that’s what will prevail. I am fighting this election, Jeremy, on something very important, that is the levels of poverty in our society, the numbers of children who are not supported properly in our society, I’m fighting this election …

JP: But the question reflects your beliefs.

JEREMY CORBYN: Jeremy, I’m fighting this election on social justice, I’m fighting this election to give us a stronger economy for the future and …

JP: But there’s a whole series of things you couldn’t even persuade your own party to put in the manifesto that you believe in.

JEREMY CORBYN: Jeremy, this manifesto reflects what would be a profound and very good change in our society because for the first time you’d have a government that was saying you cannot go on loading our students with debt, you cannot go on overcrowding our classrooms, you cannot go on underfunding our hospitals, you have to invest by all of us for the future of all of us. I don’t want to live in a country of food banks, I don’t want to live in a country of homeless people, I want to live in a country that actually does seriously care for all.

JP: When you’re Prime Minister you will have to take this country into negotiations with the rest of Europe, when they look at you and see a man who cannot get his core beliefs into his own manifesto, are they going to take you seriously?

JEREMY CORBYN: Listen, what they are going to take very seriously is that we will have been elected with a mandate, a mandate to negotiate a tariff-free trade access to the European market, that we will protect European nationals living here. What they will see is a government that is going to respect the protocols, environmental conditions, workers’ rights that have been achieved through Europe and a government that wants a serious relationship with Europe but respects the results of our referendum in that we’re leaving the European Union.

JP: You are prepared to contemplate then no deal?

JEREMY CORBYN: There’s going to be a deal.

JP: There is going to be a deal? Would you leave Europe without a deal?

JEREMY CORBYN: We will make sure there is a deal and do you know what, we won’t start …

JP: How much of our money are you prepared to give Brussels?

JEREMY CORBYN: We won’t start the negotiations by megaphone diplomacy and threatening Europe with some kind of offshore tax haven on the shores of Europe, we’ll start those negotiations seriously, seriously, with respect to them.

JP: How much money are you prepared to give to Brussels in order to get a deal?

JEREMY CORBYN: Jeremy, there are going to be negotiations over all of that. I’ve seen the figures that Michel Barnier has bandied around, I don’t recognise those figures, others may not also, we will obviously negotiate and where we have a legal obligation it must be met, where the EU has a legal obligation it must be met, we have to recognise …

JP: So you’ve done some sums?

JEREMY CORBYN: We have to recognise …

JP: You’ve done some sums haven’t you? You know how many …

JEREMY CORBYN: We have to recognise we are leaving the European Union. The priority has to be tariff-free trade access because we have a lot of manufacturing industry and …

JP: Have you done any sums?

JEREMY CORBYN: Can I finish please, really, just for a second?

JP: No, I’m asking you how much are you prepared to give to get a deal?

JEREMY CORBYN: Jeremy, I’m trying to explain the basis on which we propose to negotiate.

JP: And I am asking you a very simple question: how much are you prepared to pay to get a deal?

JEREMY CORBYN: And do you know what, there is no answer to your question, nobody could answer at this stage.

JP: Yes there is. So you don’t know.

JEREMY CORBYN: I’ve said what we would do is pay what we are legally required to do. There will have to be an agreement on trade access, now it’s not a one-way street because all of our manufacturing industry relies on supply chains across Europe, as indeed many European manufacturers have supply chains to this side of the Channel as well.

JP: Would a Corbyn Brexit mean lower immigration to this country from outside the EU?

JEREMY CORBYN: We had that discussion with the audience earlier on. Free movement …

JP: You said probably.

JEREMY CORBYN: Free movement ends when we leave the European Union and as I said …

JP: You’re not giving any guarantee on immigration.

JEREMY CORBYN: I’ve said we will protect the rights of EU nationals here and we want the same for British nationals across Europe, these are people and families …

JP: I’m asking you about immigration.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes and we will stop the undercutting that goes on by importation of low paid workers. There will be migration managed necessary to sustain our economy. I’m not going to sit here and make promises, Theresa May has done that for the third election running and hasn’t got anywhere near meeting her promises in the last.

JP: So you are not making any promises about whether you would reduce immigration?

JEREMY CORBYN: I suspect it would probably be slightly less or less but nobody …

JP: Probably? Probably is hardly a [inaudible] is it? Do you think there are too many immigrants in this country?

JEREMY CORBYN: Listen, we require migrant workers to maintain our health service and much of our industry, we have a skills gap because we haven’t invested enough in skills training.

JP: Let’s look at the security of the state then. The primary duty of a Prime Minister, the overwhelming duty is the protection of the state and yet the only time in recent history where there has been an invasion of British soil was the invasion of the Falklands and you recall what you said then, don’t you?

JEREMY CORBYN: I wanted there to be a UN brokered plan, a ceasefire at that time, which President Terry of Peru was trying to pursue.

JP: You said that young unemployed men were being sent to the South Atlantic to die in pursuit of a Tory plot.

JEREMY CORBYN: What I wanted was a stopping of that war, I didn’t want any young men – British or Argentinian or anybody else, to die in that war and as UN…

JP: Did you not think the Argentines should have got out of the Falklands?

JEREMY CORBYN: I don’t think they should have gone in there but I also think there should have been an opportunity to prevent that war happening by the UN which was being attempted at that time, that was my …

JP: So you do think it was a Tory plot do you?

JEREMY CORBYN: No, I think it was important that …

JP: Why did you say it then?

JEREMY CORBYN: I think it was important that there should be a negotiated solution to that through the United Nations, that surely …

JP: So if you didn’t think it was a Tory plot why did you say you thought it was?

JEREMY CORBYN: Jeremy, Margaret Thatcher made a great deal of the whole issue as everybody could see at the time. I felt she was exploiting the situation but at the end of every conflict there has to be a peace process. Why don’t we start with the objective of trying to get a peace process and use our counsels through the United Nations to achieve that?

JP: But it is quite possible in a couple of weeks’ time if you are sitting in Downing Street, the Chief of the Defence Staff could come to you and say we have got eyes on a man in Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan who is plotting a bombing campaign in Britain. You have got 20 minutes to make up your mind as to whether we take him out with a drone strike, do you think that’s a Tory plot as well?

JEREMY CORBYN: I would want to know the circumstances, the evidence and what would happen if …

JP: It’s happened before.

JEREMY CORBYN: And also what the effect of it would be on innocent civilians around because …

JP: So you would be prepared to take such a decision?

JEREMY CORBYN: The killing of somebody actually happened outside Parliament what, a month ago and I think you have to look at all the evidence that’s there but you can’t answer such a hypothetical question without the evidence around it.

JP: But it’s not really hypothetical, there’s …

JEREMY CORBYN: It is a completely hypothetical question.

JP: It happened with Cameron and Jihadi John. So you would be prepared to…

JEREMY CORBYN: It is a completely hypothetical question, we have to look at the evidence that’s there at the time. We have to look at the evidence that’s there at the time to make that fatal decision one way or another.

JP: Why did you describe the killing of Osama Bin Laden as a tragedy?

JEREMY CORBYN: Because I think he should have been arrested and I think he should have been put on trial and he could have been.

JP: And you think that was a tragedy?

JEREMY CORBYN: I think the whole Afghan experience is a tragedy and I think he should have been put on trial.

JP: You see what bothers a lot of people is the friends that you have made in your campaign, doubtless heartfully felt for peace, like Hamas for example. You know that Hamas have killed civilians and yet you call them your friends.

JEREMY CORBYN: It was inclusive language at a meeting in which I was promoting the idea of a two state solution, in which I was promoting the need for dialogue between Israel and all aspects of Palestine including Hamas as well as including Fatah. I think to bring about the peace process that is important. Do you know what happened last night in Tel Aviv? There was a very large demonstration of people wanting a peace process and a dialogue. I think those are people you have got to work with, you have got to work with people often you don’t agree with and don’t like and …

JP: So you call Hamas your friends despite the fact that they kill innocent women and children?

JEREMY CORBYN: It was an inclusive piece of language in order to get a meeting underway. I do not agree with them, I do not support them, I want there to be a process, at the end of the day there has to be a process in which people talk to each other, you know that.

JP: Jeremy Corbyn, thank you.