Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Hilary Benn Labour MP

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: As the government grappled with Brexit and failed to find a majority for its plan, backbench MPs are taking matters into their own hands. Tomorrow MPs could seize control of the Brexit process from the government and one of the most influential is the Chair of the Brexit Select Committee, Hilary Benn, who joins us now. Thank you very much for being on the programme this morning. I just want to start off with some of the speculation that’s in the Sunday newspapers that there could be a coup being mounted against the Prime Minister. I mean how do you feel about the prospect of a new Conservative party leader and Prime Minister?

HILARY BENN: I think we are probably seeing the final stages of the current Prime Minister’s leadership but frankly what matters more is the crisis that is still facing the country. This is a constitutional crisis, an economic crisis and as a result of the decision the European Council last week, we’ve gained an extra two weeks, no more so the real risk of a no deal Brexit has merely been delayed, it has not been averted so we need to get things in order. The first priority is to ensure that there is not a no deal Brexit and the Chancellor couldn’t have been clearer in his interview with you earlier when he talked about it being catastrophic for the British economy and on that I agree with him completely. The second thing we have to do is for Parliament, and that’s the purpose of the amendment that a cross-party group of MPs have put down for Monday, is to see whether there is an alternative approach which can command support but I have also come to the conclusion that thirdly, whatever deal Parliament is prepared to put forward, should go back to the British people given the crisis that we’re in.

SR: At the same time though, that might make it more difficult for other parliamentarians to support whatever it is you are calling for because for many people the thought of another referendum is something that fills them with dread because it means, as they see it, overturning the result of the first one.

HILARY BENN: Well I have reflected long and hard on this and I have been very struck in the last two weeks, the Prime Minister brought her deal to Parliament, it was rejected. She brought it back and it was rejected. She may bring it back this week and I suspect it will be rejected again. Now we are told that that is democratic, the intent to try and get us as MPs to change our minds – can someone please explain to me why it is undemocratic to ask the British people whether on reflection they would like to change their mind or not? The point about a confirmatory referendum in the amendment that Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson have put together is I think the way forward, Jeremy spoke very approvingly of it when he was on your programme I think last week. It says prepare whatever deal Parliament can agree with the European Union, put that to the people and if that’s carried we leave on that basis so if people want to vote leave again of course they can do so. We now know a bit more about what Brexit means, we don’t know the full story but if that is rejected then the alternative would be that we would remain in the European Union and if Parliament remains deadlocked – and there is no guarantee that the process that the select committee I chair called for and which I hope will take place next week would guarantee it would resolve the deadlock in Parliament – and in those circumstances what other way is there of getting a final decision other than to go back to the British people?

SR: So would you vote for the Prime Minister’s deal as it stands if it was then put to a public vote? Caroline Lucas said she would.

HILARY BENN: Well I think the proposal is in effect Parliament would allow it to go through – well people could abstain but the fact is it would be approved but only if the Prime Minister and the government gave an absolute categorical that it would then be put to the British people because you then put in second referendum a leave proposition that has been negotiated with the European Union, and that’s the only one that there is at the moment. We may negotiate a different one – Norway and a customs union for example which there may be a lot of support for – but in the end I think you need people’s consent because we are now nearly three years on and the truth about the last two and three-quarter years is that the fantasies that were presented by the Leave campaigners during the referendum – and you’ve heard them on the programme this morning – have collided with the reality and it’s a national crisis because the government has failed to face up to the real choices rather than carrying on and pretending we can have our cake and eat it because we can’t and now we know that.

SR: Now you more than perhaps anyone are very, very plugged in to what’s happening with these votes next week, you’ve been talking to members of the government about it as well. Can you just explain what you believe the strategy will be next week, how will it unfold, will there be a free vote, will the government effectively allow a new amendment through? What’s happening?

HILARY BENN: Well it’s not entirely clear what the government’s approach is going to take. I listened very carefully to what Philip Hammond had to say because the government could have taken control of this process but we are acting as backbenchers because the government has failed to do that, it’s complete and utter chaos, we can all see that. I think the key alternative options are do you want a free trade agreement like Canada? Now I will not vote for that because it doesn’t solve the problem of the border in Northern Ireland and it doesn’t give the kind of friction free trade which Adam Marshall’s members need in order to carry on with their businesses. The second option is a customs union and I think that is an essential building block of solving the Northern Ireland border problem and the third is a ?? way plus an arrangement customs union plus Norway. It seems to me that is essential if you are going to keep an open border, honour the Good Friday Agreement and ensure that businesses continue to trade freely. There are policy choices about the future and then separate from that is how does the final decision get made and that’s where a confirmatory referendum comes in and I would vote for that when it is presented to Parliament.

SR: I think it is very complicated to talk about all these different ways forward but I think we have got a graphic where these are what Sky News are expecting effectively are some of the things there could be. Philip Hammond effectively rules out the top one – no deal Brexit – and he ruled out the bottom one, Revoke Article 50, but he didn’t rule out any of the others. Is that effectively where you are? The top four I guess you probably wouldn’t vote for but are you willing to stomach the others?

HILARY BENN: Well a no deal Brexit has been rejected by Parliament twice now and that’s absolutely clear. There is another amendment down for Monday from my colleague Yvette Cooper which is looking ahead because we must ensure, going back to my first point, that we do not leave without a deal. A free trade agreement doesn’t work, indeed the Prime Minister made that clear, she said a Canada deal wouldn’t work for the Northern Ireland problem. The PM’s deal has been rejected twice now and I think whether you can describe a customs union plus the PM’s deal, a customs union would be different. We have been asking the Prime Minister to accept the basic building block of making progress as a customs union and she has resolutely refused to do that. I think a customs union and single market, or variation thereof; I support the confirmatory referendum. The revocation of Article 50, I think the only circumstance comes right back to the first point on your list. If we have got to three weeks’ time and the EU said I’m sorry, we’re not prepared to give you an extension – I am absolutely clear the number one priority is to avoid a no deal Brexit – and if they refuse to give us an extension then Parliament would be faced with the choice about whether to use that particular method but we’ve got to do our job and it is the government’s failure to its job is why Parliament … People say grab control of the order paper, this is MPs doing their job that the public would expect us to do to try and find an alternative way forward.

SR: Well let’s talk about that, about MPs effectively doing their job as you would say, taking control of the order paper as others would. I was in Brussels this week and I spoke to Philippe Lamberts who is an MEP on the Brexit Steering Group and if you have a quick look at what he told me the delay was all about. He said, ‘What we did here is to create some space to let Parliament take hold of the process.’ He described it as ‘to give another chance to the adults in Westminster.’ I mean is that what’s happening, is this effectively a Parliamentary coup?

HILARY BENN: Well it’s not a coup because Parliament has to agree a deal and a way forward, that’s what we were elected to do, that’s what the public expect us to do. Now I very much welcome the fact that the EU agreed to provide some more time because a no deal Brexit would be catastrophic for us, for the Republic of Ireland it would be very damaging, for the European Union I don't think they’d want to see that happen but they are as frustrated as everybody else at the government’s inability to move. The central question for next week, Sophy, is supposing Parliament did say we are in favour of a different approach, all the indications are for the last two and three-quarter years is that the Prime Minister has refused to shift an inch. She keeps saying my deal or no deal, my deal or no deal.

SR: Let’s talk about that because we haven’t got much time left. David Lidington, a man you have spent a lot of time with in meetings in recent months, the de facto Deputy Prime Minister, a man who some people are saying should be put in place as a caretaker Prime Minister. Would you welcome that?

HILARY BENN: Look, the leadership of the Conservative party is a problem for the Conservative party. I would like to see a change but …

SR: It’s a problem for Parliament as well.

HILARY BENN: But what I think is essential now is whoever is the leader of the Conservative party, if Parliament decides that it is prepared to support a way forward and if Parliament decides that it then wants to put that to the British people in a confirmatory referendum, the nation needs leadership that is prepared to compromise. That’s the crucial point and the reason Theresa May is in such difficulty this morning is she has steadfastly refused to shift an inch. It’s no use saying my door is open, come and talk to me, if her mind is closed and I’m afraid that’s what he last two and three quarter years have demonstrated plus there has been an unwillingness to tell the British people the truth about the real choices we face.

SR: We’re out of time, Hilary Benn thank you very much.

HILARY BENN: Thank you.