Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Jon Trickett MP Shadow Brexit Secretary

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: This week the government lost three votes in the House of Commons within the space of two hours and won the dubious honour of becoming the first government in history to be found in contempt of Parliament. Labour are of course, as you’d expect, piling on the pressure with the Shadow Brexit Secretary telling me on this show last week that a confidence motion in the government would be inevitable if the Brexit vote was lost. Well joining us now is one of Jeremy Corbyn’s most trusted allies and a key member of his inner circle, the Shadow Cabinet Minister, Jon Trickett. Thank you very much being with us. Well in these very unpredictable times we’re trying to give our viewers a bit of sense of what might unfold next week so if Theresa May does lose this vote, as we expect her to, will Labour be calling a confidence motion?

JON TRICKETT: Let’s see what happens. The focus is on making sure we defeat this really bodged deal which has been presented to the House of Commons. We don’t know, although the Leader is saying we are going to win the vote, whether we will or not. We’ll then see what our tactics need to be following that and there are a number of possible scenarios and I don't think it’s possible to guess in advance exactly what’s going to happen.

SR: Last week on the show though, the Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, told me it was inevitable that Labour would call a confidence motion if she lost the vote, so what’s changed?

JON TRICKETT: Nothing has changed, we simply don’t know what is going to happen on Tuesday night and remember, it’s quite possible according again to the media – and who knows? – that the whole vote may be put off and Mrs May goes back to Europe. Look, the big question which is facing the country is how in a democratic society do we retain the consent of the people? I think the Brexit vote shows that a significant body of people do not consent to the direction to which the country has been going and I represent, if you like, Brexit Central, my seat is one of the strongest Brexit areas. Those people believe their voice would be listened to and that we would have a proper Brexit which would put jobs first. That is not what we’ve got. We’ve got a deal which is bodged and Mrs May said there is no other alternative, let’s see what happens on Tuesday night. We need to defeat this and we also, by the way, need to make sure that there is no cliff edge falling out of Brexit inadvertently with the disaster which would then follow.

SR: You’re talking there about some pretty big themes, about people feeling listened to, disconnected, so what I don’t understand then is calling a confidence motion would be Labour’s big chance of getting into power, why would you possibly give that up?

JON TRICKETT: We’re not ruling anything out at the present time. I think we need to see what happens on the night. Nobody really knows, I’ve sat with government ministers, you’re speaking to some of them this morning …

SR: Nobody knows but we’ve got a pretty clear idea how it is going to be difficult for her to win isn’t it?

JON TRICKETT: Well if you’re going on a journey you need to take one step at a time and the truth is we are facing a big moment in our country’s history, let’s be honest about it. The first thing is to persuade the country this is the wrong deal, to persuade the House of Commons. When that has happened there will be several routes actually, one of which is to say that we should rule out that the House of Commons rules out a deal which simply leaves us falling off the edge, that is quite an important debate as well. What subsequently happens and exactly how it is choreographed, we need to see. Now clearly we have a view as to what ought to happen but we are not the government, we are not the largest party and Mrs May still holds most of the cards in relation to what happens after the vote, although I think time is really running out for her and if you can tell me if she will still be the Prime Minister on Tuesday evening, then perhaps I can tell you exactly what we will do next. So there are a number of scenarios …

SR: I wish I could tell you but sadly I’m not a member of the Shadow Cabinet, you’ve got a lot more influence than me.

JON TRICKETT: Well maybe she doesn’t quite know either by the way, I think things have run out of control and look, the whole way in which she has negotiated this has been an absolute disaster from the start. Why would you right at the start say all these millions of people, European citizens who have lived here for many, many years, paid their tax, contributed to our economy, should now become a point of negotiation. I mean that would cause [inaudible] from day one.

SR: But she said right from the beginning hasn’t she, that she is going to guarantee the rights for people already here?

JON TRICKETT: No, I don’t believe she has from the very beginning and it caused great offence. If you are the Prime Minister or President of another country and you’ve got maybe tens of thousands of citizens working in Britain, you want to know from day one that those jobs and those people are going to be secure here and I think the language being used by some Tories about putting the white flag and capitulation, it implies that Europe is somehow our enemies rather than our allies, friends and long-term neighbours.

SR: So you’ve described the negotiation as a disaster there and I have to say it has been a quite extraordinary week for the government, we’ve got over a hundred Conservative MPs saying that they can’t support the Prime Minister’s deal, they have become the first government in history to be found in contempt of Parliament, so my question to you is why hasn’t Labour had a big lead in the polls? If we look at the latest poll for example, I know this is just one poll but the IPSOS MORI poll on Friday effectively saying that you’re deadlocked. If the government is in such disarray why aren’t you so far ahead?

JON TRICKETT: Well we’ve all learnt that the polls only reveal so much. The polls have proved very badly wrong in the past in the election and we were 26 points I think when the election was called only last year. That was another disastrous decision by the government by the way. We finished at over 40 points. Look I think the country is generally watching what’s happening and I think to some extent confused and worried, anxious about the future and look at the kind of news which is happening around us, the Universal Credit, the explosion of wealth for the richest and other people living in very difficult conditions. The United Nations saying there are 15 million of our fellow citizens living in poverty, 250,000 children in Yorkshire in poverty. I mean a government should be able to do several things at once, multitask, but this government can’t even single task.

SR: Now I am keen to talk to you about Labour’s position there, you’re talking about people feeling uncertain and concerned, so let’s try and find out what Labour’s position is, if there is an election you’ll have to tell us then. Does Labour support a second referendum, is that something you would like to see?

JON TRICKETT: What we’ve said, and I think you know this, our conference, Labour party conference, decided that a second referendum should be one of the options which are available to us but again, if anybody can tell me exactly how this is going to emerge over time then I think we can give you a clear evolving answer.

SR: But you have a chance to shape what happens though?

JON TRICKETT: Of course we can and we are doing.

SR: It’s not just about following events, this is really serious stuff and you have a chance to shape it.

JON TRICKETT: You are trying to pull me into a ‘what if’ question and my …

SR: Well I am asking what Labour’s policy is.

JON TRICKETT: No, it’s what if the vote happens on Tuesday night and we lose the vote, sorry, if the Tories lose the vote what would then happen subsequently and I don't think we can say a referendum is the only possible alternative and let me explain why, because as you know, we said that an election is probably our preferred choice and the reason why we said this is because if a referendum were to take place in the present Parliament, who’s to say we will get out the gridlock which the Parliament is in? An election allows us to refresh the mandate, have a conversation with the wider population and come back to Parliament, probably with some new MPs and different points of view and take the argument forward at that stage. So our preferred option, very, very strongly, is that we refresh the Parliament though we are ready to form a minority government should that be necessary – and it could happen on Wednesday morning – and to begin to reset the negotiation and take the country forward in a much better direction.

SR: I just want to talk a little bit more about the second referendum question because as you say you support a seat that voted in favour of Brexit in West Yorkshire, what do you think the reaction would be by constituents in places like where you represent if there was another vote?

JON TRICKETT: Well I think if people feel that a privileged political elite has decided by subterfuge to find a way of reversing the previous referendum, that would cause us some difficulty and rightly so, because I started this discussion with you describing this sense in the country of what on earth’s happening, this withdrawal of consent so I think we need to show to the country that we’ve been through the various different options and if at some point a referendum becomes absolutely necessary, it’s at that point that it takes place. Bear in mind this, it can take months, six or seven months, to organise a referendum because there is no law which allows us to do it so we have to pass a law, we have to decide what the question is, we have to renew the people on the voting lists and then there has to be a period of time for the referendum so we think the earliest it can take place is probably May or June. We’ll have gone past the March deadline which Mrs May has imposed on the country so there are some issues about a referendum which need to be addressed as well but look, in the meantime, every day that passes is another day nearer to potential disaster and we say we need to reset the negotiations straight away on a new basis and come forward with a different way of mending our country and its relationship with Europe.

SR: Do you think some MPs from all parties, from Labour, the Conservatives and in southern seats, particularly London, do you think they really understand the sense of betrayal that some voters would feel if there is another referendum?

JON TRICKETT: I can’t speak for other MPs but what I know is it is deep in people’s soul that this country needs to change direction in the constituency I represent and I think across the north generally, and rightly so because look what’s happening to the communities which were the source of Britain’s wealth in the industrial revolution and the centuries after that and now that these areas have been deindustrialised, the jobs which are coming in are temporary often, part-time, poorly paid, insecure – our young people don’t have a future unless they move out of the area and I think all of that weighs heavily on people’s minds when they think of the future. I think Brexit was a vote to say we do not like the direction of the country and so Labour’s response has been a big response, we do need to change direction, substantially and fundamentally, and head in a new direction to rebuild all those communities.

SR: With all that in mind, do you want to see us leave the EU now?

JON TRICKETT: Our line has been …

SR: But I’m asking you what do you think, what’s your view?

JON TRICKETT: My view is clear, my history everybody knows is I was against going into the Common Market all those years ago as a young man. Over the years though the economy has become very tied up with Europe and therefore I think it is not easy for us to disentangle so my position, and our position by the way, has been that we need to stay but that we need to do fundamental and radical reform because status quo, things as they are now …

SR: So you want to stay now, even after having a referendum?

JON TRICKETT: No, we have decided that we are leaving because we have listened to the people’s vote which was an instruction from the people, a kind of contract between us and the people to accept the decision but you were asking me what our position was at the time of the referendum …

SR: No, sorry, I mean your position now.

JON TRICKETT: Our position is quite clear, we accept the results of the referendum and we think that there is a way to this and, by the way, we think there is a way of not dividing the country. At the moment we have a government which is trying to divide the country on the lines of how they voted in the referendum, I think there’s a way of bringing the country back together again. This government has been appalling in the way it has divided people one against the other and that must stop.

SR: Okay, Jon Trickett, thank you very much.

JON TRICKETT: Thank you.