Sunday with Niall Paterson Interview with Caroline Nokes MP Immigration Minister

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: The government’s delayed Immigration Bill is due to be published soon but we know the plan remains to get net immigration down to the tens of thousands. The latest figures show immigration at nearly a quarter of a million so quite a task for the new Immigration Minister, Caroline Nokes, who joins me in the studio. Ms Nokes, a very good morning to you, congratulations on your new job.

CAROLINE NOKES: Thank you very much, Niall, good morning.

NP: You’ve certainly hit the ground running, a new Memorandum of Understanding signed with the Indian government to help return criminals, return illegal migrants, explain a little bit of the thinking.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well that’s been an MOU that was started by my predecessor and we’ve had the Indian Minister, Kiren Rijiju, over this week talking to him and indicating the support of both governments for the MOU. That’s going to be signed formally by the Prime Minister and Prime Minister Modi in April when he is over here but it is really important that we have in place the mechanisms so that we can speed up the returns of people who shouldn’t be here and share information with one of our allies about criminal records, fingerprints, identity, so that we can make it a much smoother process.

NP: Still, clearly the most pressing issue for any Immigration Minister is net migration. 2010, 2015, 2017 we had a Conservative manifesto promise to bring it down to the tens of thousands. Are you finally the Conservative to fulfil that promise?

CAROLINE NOKES: I think we’ve done a good job so far. My predecessor as Immigration Minister, the current Home Secretary and of course her predecessor as Home Secretary, have set the direction of travel. We have seen the trajectory headed in the right direction but what’s really important is that we make sure that this is a country that is open and welcoming to those who want to come here to study and to work so that we can have the right people come to this country helping our communities and economy and make sure that we stick to that …

NP: In terms of the tens of thousands target, you are a country mile away from it still, a quarter of a million net migration this year.

CAROLINE NOKES: We’re very clear, that’s a manifesto commitment and we are headed in the right direction.

NP: It’s about time you gave that manifesto commitment.

CAROLINE NOKES: Which proves that we are committed to do it and we are working really hard …

NP: It also shows that you are not very good at living up to your promises.

CAROLINE NOKES: And I think that’s an unfair comment to the new Immigration Minister you know. I’m determined in my new job to make sure that we continue that direction of travel, that we work really hard to make sure that have sustainable levels of migration into this country.

NP: So how are you going to do it?

CAROLINE NOKES: Well we are going to have a new Immigration Bill come forward. I know that Brexit provides a challenge and it is really important that in a post-Brexit era we make sure that we have the right policies in place to ensure that we can get towards that target. I have never said that it is going to be quick, we have to make sure that the direction of travel continues and that we do this sustainably over a long period.

NP: Just give me one way in which you’ll be able to make a significant hit to the net migration numbers.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well as I have already said, we are working hard to make sure that we continue with removals with our allies in the countries that we work closely with …

NP: That’s tens, that’s hundreds, that’s not thousands.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well it has been thousands and it will continue to be thousands of people who shouldn’t be here and who we don’t wish to be here but in addition to that we have to make sure that we have the right policies in place and I don’t pretend that’s going to be easy but we have to ensure that we continue to attract people to our country who have supported our economy but that post-Brexit we have the right strategy – which after all is what people told us they wanted in the referendum.

NP: One way to help the figures would be to remove, as a number of your colleagues have suggested and asked, foreign students from the total. Given the rate of return, given the financial benefits that they bring to the UK, I mean that’s a no-brainer isn’t it?

CAROLINE NOKES: Well I think you have to look very closely at the ONS who do the official statistics and they are very clear that anybody who is here for 12 months or more should be included in the statistics because after all, they will be using services like the health service in this country, so it is important that we account for the people who are here correctly and accurately but we have asked the Migration Advisory Committee to look at this issue, they are reporting in September and I am not going to pre-judge what they are going to say.

NP: Still, as Sky’s Beth Rigby discovered, the Prime Minister might not have much of a say in the matter. Given the government’s precarious majority, Scottish Tory MPs we know are agitating for this particular change, are you ruling this out?

CAROLINE NOKES: What I’ve said to you really is clearly is we have the Migration Advisory Committee, they are independent experts, economists, who are going to look at this for us and I’ll be working with them over the coming months and I’m really looking forward to what they have to say in September.

NP: Yes, but what’s your view?

CAROLINE NOKES: Well my view is – and I’ve told you the position that the ONS insists on those who are here for more than twelve months being included so it’s right that we stick by that. We can’t be seen to fudge statistics and that’s the last thing I want to do. What I want to do is to work with the MAC to get the right solutions.

NP: Speaking of Scottish Conservatives, I just want to show you a little tweet that came to my attention today, it’s just going to be over your shoulder I think. It’s Ruth Davidson, she’s out and about campaigning but flanked by Justine Greening. Well it will appear that the gremlins have got in … oh we’re showing on another screen at the moment. Justine Greening, why on earth was she removed from the Cabinet?

CAROLINE NOKES: Look, I really like Justine, she did a great job both as Education Secretary and as Women and Equalities Secretary, a role that Amber has taken up in the Home Office now. Justine worked really hard, I was really pleased to see her on Thursday at Women and Equalities Questions being supportive, working hard. You know, it’s right that we go forward with our education policy and my colleague Damian Hinds who I work with in the DWP and who is a near neighbour of mine in Hampshire, is absolutely the right person to take forward our education policy.

NP: I’m certainly not going to pre-judge his abilities and his time at the Department for Education but if she was doing a good job, Justine Greening, why on earth was she moved?

CAROLINE NOKES: I wasn’t privy to the Prime Minister’s conversations. That may surprise you in Downing Street on ….

NP: But what’s your best guess then?

CAROLINE NOKES: But I know that the Prime Minister was determined to put the right people in the right places.

NP: Which rather implies that Justine Greening was not the right person for education which bothers a number of people.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well we have seen some significant changes across government and a redefinition of roles and departments so we’ve seen some changes to the Department of Health and Social Care now, I think that’s a really positive and important change and indeed Housing and Communities and Local Government, I think really stressing the Prime Minister’s commitments on Health and Social Care and indeed on Housing, making them foremost in the Cabinet. Look, I don’t decide the reshuffles, the Prime Minister does that and I think the reshuffle that we saw this week was really positive about promoting women, about promoting women from BAME backgrounds …

NP: Into government, not into the Cabinet.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well we’ve got more women attending Cabinet than previously, we’ve got more Ministers from a BAME background and that’s really important. We are a modern Conservative party that looks like the country that it represents.

NP: The suggestion from commentators, Ian Martin is one of them and he described the reshuffle yesterday as rubbish. The contention that some people are making is people like for example Rory Stewart, Dominic Raab, the next generation who really had an expectation of being promoted to Secretary of State rank, that they weren’t, they were ignored so that they didn’t have any Cabinet experience this year yet deliberately handicapping them just in case they wanted to run for the leadership this year or next.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well I think that’s absolute nonsense and there have been some great people promoted to Cabinet. My colleague Clare Perry for example, Damian Hinds who I have already mentioned but we have seen a raft of changes at Minister of State level and that’s not a junior level at all. People like Caroline Dineage promoted and I think what we’ve seen are some great changes, some refocusing of priorities on the environment, on social care and these are really, really important things for us to be taking forward.

NP: But if you squint and looked at a picture of the Cabinet it would look almost the same as it did before.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well I would disagree with that and let’s face it, I was one of the new faces around that table, me and Clare Perry and Matt Hancock, all changes, Damian was sitting at the other end of the table. But you know, it’s about making a government that is forward looking, a government that is determined to get on and do the job effectively, supporting the Prime Minister and we’re all really pleased to be doing that.

NP: Even with what can clearly be seen as a safety first reshuffle, the Conservatives were once again home to Mr and Mrs Cock-up weren’t you? I mean the tweet that was sent out by Central Office announcing Chris Grayling as Chairman rather than, as we now know, Brandon Lewis. I mean Brandon Lewis your new Chairman does have a point, your digital strategy really needs to up its game.

CAROLINE NOKES: And Brandon is overseeing that and is absolutely the right person to be doing that. You know, I think as somebody who does tweet, I need to maybe raise my game on that, sometimes I am criticised for having one of the most boring Twitter feeds on the planet.

NP: I can’t believe it, can’t believe it!

CAROLINE NOKES: Shocking isn’t it? But some of us use it for varying purposes. I always focus on my Twitter feed on the job I do in Romsey and Southampton North, supporting my constituents, attending important meetings and events there. Yes, there are a whole range of techniques that we can use but yes, sure, I want to see more of my colleagues tweeting and I want to see more of our activists tweeting.

NP: I just want to move onto a couple of stories that have emerged in the past 24 hours. Our City Editor Mark Kleinman has revealed the fact that Carillion looks on its last legs, can you be absolutely clear the government is not about to bail out Carillion in the way in which it did with the banks?

CAROLINE NOKES: So the government has been working really closely with Carillion and has met Carillion’s lenders and is determined to work as closely as we can to make sure that not only are there contingencies in place but that we are absolutely prepared and know what the proper situation and picture is. It would be very wrong of me at this time to make any comment further on Carillion but I think it is fair to say that the government has been working across different departments, those that are most affected with contracts with Carillion, to make sure that we have the right strategies in place should the worst happen but this is a company that is still a going concern and it’s important that we don’t prejudice that.

NP: Mark Kleinman suggests that the government is not minded to bail it out in the same way as we did with the banks, what he does suggest is that the government is being asked to ensure that certain payments are made at certain points in the contract. Again, that sounds very much like the contracts are being torn up and once again the taxpayer is being asked to foot the bill.

CAROLINE NOKES: I am not going to comment on the specifics of the many contracts that the government has with Carillion but it is really important to know and to reassure viewers that the government has worked closely with Carillion and its lenders to put in place the necessary contingency strategies should the worst happen but, as I’ve said, this company is a going concern.

NP: Donald Trump and the visit that never was, would you have welcomed him with open arms?

CAROLINE NOKES: I think it’s really important for our relationship with the United States that the President be afforded an invitation for a state visit. We work really closely with the United States, they are our closest ally, we share information with them, we trade with them so of course the President of the United States should come here and we should give him a good welcome.

NP: So it is a failure on the part of the Foreign Office to make it happen?

CAROLINE NOKES: Well President Trump has clearly made his own decision about whether he wishes to come for the opening of their new Embassy …

NP: No one is suggesting that he doesn’t know his own mind but the Foreign Office have failed haven’t they?

CAROLINE NOKES: No, I don't think they have failed. There was never a date set for the visit and I think it’s important to reflect on that and I’m sure that he will come here and we will accord to the President of one of our closest allies absolutely the welcome that he deserves.

NP: And when will that happen? The problem is this, it does rather seem that the President of the United States has been put off attending meetings in here in London be it a state visit or otherwise because of the Mayor of London.

CAROLINE NOKES: Well the message that he is getting from the government of the United Kingdom is that we want him to come here, we want to continue our relationship with the United States that is so important to us and indeed, as we move towards Brexit, we need to be having welcoming relationships with many, many countries across the globe and we want people to come here and know that Britain is open for business.

NP: And while we have you, the new Justice Secretary has asked that the government lawyers look again at the parole board decision regarding John Warboys, to investigate the possibility of a judicial review, why?

CAROLINE NOKES: Well I think it is absolutely the right thing to do for the victims of this individual and we know from the media coverage that we’ve seen how hurt and angry they are so I’m really pleased that David Gauke has asked his officials to look at the possibility of a judicial review. Further than that, to look at what happened here with the parole board and see if there is anything that needs to be reviewed or changed and I think we first and foremost have to think of those victims and it’s horrendous for them that he should be out in less than a decade and I absolutely understand their feelings on this so I’m wholly supportive of the proposals that David Gauke is making.

NP: Caroline Nokes, many thanks for joining us. I don't know if it’s too late but happy new year anyway.

CAROLINE NOKES: Thank you very much, good to be here.