Sunday with Niall Paterson Interview with Dawn Butler Labour MP
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS
NIALL PATERSON: Labour has called for the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, to consider her position over the government’s handling of Windrush migrants. To discuss that and much else, joining me now the Shadow Women and Equalities Secretary, Dawn Butler. Ms Butler, a very good morning to you, lovely to see you again. Can we start with the Stephen Lawrence case? I asked a similar question to Baroness Scotland not that long ago, 25 years on from his death how as the United Kingdom as a country dealt with racism in your view?
DAWN BUTLER: Well you do wonder the lessons that have been learnt since the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence and what his family have been through and are still going through. Obviously we have come some way in regards to race relations but there is still a lot more to learn. When you think about for instance this week, I wrote to the Prime Minister in regard to one of her Members of Parliament using the N-word, which Stephen’s murderers bandied about quite easily, you wonder why it is it hasn’t been tackled and why this Member of Parliament had the Whip reinstated with no word to what progress or journey she’s been on in that regard and I think it’s a lesson to us all. Institutional racism talks about organisations that foster an environment that disproportionately affects people of one particular race or group and I think we’re finding with the current policies of this government that it’s doing exactly that. It’s a really sad moment because you’ve got 25 years since the murder, the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence, you’ve got 50 years since Enoch Powell’s ‘River of Blood’ speech and it’s just a really, really sad moment for me personally, as well as a lot of people in the country.
NP: You mentioned institutional racism there, given what we’ve seen this week with Windrush, do you think the government could be accused of institutional racism?
DAWN BUTLER: I think they can and it’s only when I was reviewing the papers of the Stephen Lawrence case and the tribunal and looking at what the description of what institutional racism is and as I’ve been reading and listening to all of the stories around Windrush, it occurred to me that the policies that this Prime Minister – and it lays solely at the door of Theresa May that her policies where she wanted to create a hostile environment has actually created an environment that disproportionately affects and discriminates people of colour and therefore could be classified as institutionally racist and I don’t say that lightly, I say that with a very heavy heart.
NP: Of course there was a degree of Labour involvement in this, Alan Johnson set the ball rolling back in 2009.
DAWN BUTLER: That’s just a pivot and distraction from what has actually happened and is happening, what we have to focus and concentrate on because that’s not true actually but what we need to focus on is what needs to happen to right this historical wrong and that’s where the focus needs to lie. The Prime Minister says she has got this taskforce, I understand that this taskforce is made up of inexperienced people who work in a telephone call centre. That is inappropriate and it’s not good enough, what we need are skilled workers who work in the Home Office, that has a pathway to ensuring that these cases are dealt with quickly and efficiently in the two weeks’ timeframe that the Prime Minister said it would happen.
NP: So who is ultimately at fault here? You mentioned the Home Office there, they have been warned a number of times over the years about the situation. I mean back in 2014, and I put this point to the Defence Minister that we had on earlier, they said look, it’s up to the individual, it’s up to the individual to assure themselves of their immigration status.
DAWN BUTLER: That is absolutely outrageous. How can it be up to the individual? I mean it was the Prime Minister that said she was going to create a hostile environment that has now put all of these, many of them old age pensioners, in jeopardy. Some of these people are now suffering trauma because of the policies and legislation. It is not really up to the individual … it’s up to the individuals now to make themselves known and it’s up to the government to right this historical wrong. It’s a disgrace and it’s a stain on our country that this has happened, where people have worked all their lives in this country, paid their taxes and are now feeling that they surplus to requirements. How dare the Prime Minister allow this to happen?
NP: Why then – and this is something that’s puzzled me this week – why then is it that the Labour party’s position that it is Amber Rudd’s role that is the position that is untenable rather than that of Theresa May? Amber Rudd has been at the Home Office for some time now but the situation as regards Windrush, I mean that’s Theresa May’s creation isn’t it?
DAWN BUTLER: It’s absolutely Theresa May. What Labour is saying is that Amber Rudd should consider her position but I personally, and we are still of the opinion that is it Theresa May, she was the Home Secretary at the time, she made the legislation, she’s the Prime Minister, she’s the one that’s rolling this out through, she’s the one who demanded that the Go Home racist vans were going through my constituency in Brent, the most diverse constituency in the UK, it was Theresa May that did that, this is her responsibility and indefinite leave to remain is not good enough. That is not British citizenship, those people that came here from the Commonwealth were full British citizens when they arrived and they should be full British citizens now.
NP: Given all of that then, could Theresa May herself be accused of racism?
DAWN BUTLER: Yes, she is the leader, she is presiding over legislation that is discriminating against a whole group of people that came from the Commonwealth, who suffered racism when they came over, the ‘No blacks, no Irish, no dogs’ and now they are having to relive that trauma all over again because of Theresa May? She is not going to get let off the hook on this and this has to be redressed as quickly as possible and just saying stuff isn’t good enough, I need to see action and I need to see action quickly.
NP: I just want to be absolutely clear, you are saying that Theresa May herself, her position is untenable and that she is racist?
DAWN BUTLER: In my own personal opinion, and I’m speaking as myself, as Dawn Butler, the daughter of Jamaican parents, I am saying Theresa May has presided over racist legislation that has discriminated against a whole generation of people from the Commonwealth. Her policies that she has implemented have disproportionately affected people from the Commonwealth and people of colour and therefore if you look at what institutional racism is, that’s what her policies are currently delivering so she is, so Theresa May has to not only reconsider her position but she has to reconsider her policies and an apology is not good enough.
NP: Part of the reason that we are focusing so much on Windrush is of course that Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting that took place this week. Should Britain be doing more within its leading role within the Commonwealth to try and push forward on dealing with the criminalisation of homosexuality which exists in the majority of nations that make up the Commonwealth?
DAWN BUTLER: Of course, the power of being part of the Commonwealth and part of leading and chairing the Commonwealth Heads of Government is to say these are the progressive policies that we need to develop a country in a global world that is better for everybody. Of course that should be something that we’ll be putting forward and should be putting forward. It’s the same with capital punishment which is something that needs to be discussed around the country and around the globe and the UK should be leading on those issues.
NP: I just wonder then what you make of the proposals coming from the Health and Social Care Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, today about giving Facebook, Twitter et al a week to get their house in order? If you’re looking for a cesspit of abuse you only need to dip your toe into social media these days, what do you make of his proposed legislation?
DAWN BUTLER: Yes, absolutely, we’ve been talking about social media for a very long time, for a number of years there was a campaign led by Labour politicians, actually it was cross-party, in regards to reclaiming the internet and ensuring that social media groups are accountable and that they act quickly and swiftly when abuse takes place on their platform. It hasn’t been done, the government hasn’t been forthright or progressive in regards to having it done. I’m glad that Jeremy Hunt has come up with that now because it is linked to mental health but I’m sorry, I think it is a distraction from them dealing with the Windrush crisis and fiasco. It’s good but we have been calling for it for years and it’s a distraction and I am not about to get distraction until I am certain that this is going to be dealt with in the right way and currently it isn’t.
NP: Dawn Butler, many thanks for joining us.
DAWN BUTLER: Thank you.
