Sunday with Niall Paterson Interview with John Ashworth MP Labour

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON

NIALL PATERSON: Labour could be about to throw their weight behind Tory Brexit rebels in a bid to force the government into committing to a vote on the final Brexit deal. Well joining us from Leicester to discuss this is Shadow Health Secretary, John Ashworth. A very good morning to you Mr Ashworth.

JOHN ASHWORTH: Good morning.

NP: The last time we spoke I was perhaps slightly cheeky, I asked you what Labour’s position on Brexit was that week, I’ve learned my lesson, we won’t be doing that anymore but I want to deal with the question of a no deal Brexit. Emily Thornberry has today reiterated comments she made on this show last week that we appear to be heading for a no deal Brexit, the Labour party has made it pretty clear that if they had the opportunity they would vote against any no deal, why is that?

JOHN ASHWORTH: Because we don’t think a so-call no deal, where we simply crash out of the EU and therefore have to adopt all the World Trade Organisation tariff regimes is in the interest of British business, in the interest of British farming. We’ve got to export to the EU and imposing some of the very high tariffs that we’d inevitably have to adopt we don’t think is in our interests so that’s why we have spoken out against a no deal. Actually the government has said in the House of Commons that their no deal posture is a negotiating tactic, completely undermining their ability to negotiate, to use it as a tactic. That just shows you how hapless the government’s approach is to Brexit.

NP: But no deal doesn’t necessarily mean no agreement whatsoever. I mean it could also look like agreement on the Exit Bill, an answer to the Northern Ireland border question, agreement on EU nationals, it could essentially be agreement on everything apart from trade. If that were the case, what’s the problem with going to WTO rules?

JOHN ASHWORTH: Well if there were agreements on all those other things then there is a deal of sorts but we would obviously have to study the details of that which is why we are saying that parliament has to have the final say. I do think it is rather ironic that we have the sort of rabid Brexiteers on the Tory side saying just get on with it, I thought Brexit was all about bringing sovereignty back to parliament. So we believe in those sets of circumstances parliament would have to say. Obviously we’d have to study very carefully the details of all that before we come to a final decision.

NP: What you just mentioned there, parliament having the final say, essentially confirms a line that the Labour party has been putting out for quite some time so we now understand the Labour position to be you will vote against any no deal Brexit, you could also vote against what you see as a bad Brexit, why’s that?

JOHN ASHWORTH: Because a bad Brexit is not in the national interests. Why should we support a Brexit deal that means that hard working families here in my Leicester constituency and across the country are worse off? We are in the business of improving the prosperity of families, not making families worse off and if the outcome of this government’s negotiations is a deal which means the British economy suffers, that’s not something we’re going to accept, we want to strengthen the British economy. A strong economy means we can invest in public services like our NHS and our schools so that’s why we want a strong economy, we don’t want Brexit to weaken our economy and if that’s what Theresa May comes up with then I’ve got to say that’s not going to be in the national interest.

NP: But there will be plenty of people listening to what you just said this morning, Mr Ashworth, who see this as something of an abrogation of the democratic responsibility. Where in that question that was posed to the British people back in June 2016 was there any mention of this? That the UK should leave the EU only if Sir Kier Starmer thinks it’s a good deal? It was a simple question about being in or being out, the rest of the responsibility was handed to the government.

JOHN ASHWORTH: There has been a national poll of the country since that referendum, we had a general election campaign and I know the Tories don’t like to be reminded of that general election campaign now, and all of us in our personal manifesto’s when we stood for election said we would oppose any deal which was not in the national interest so we have had a democratic vote on that position since the referendum.

NP: Here’s the thing, so Labour is saying that it will vote down a no deal Brexit, you will vote down anything you believe to be a bad deal and if you won’t accept either of those options there is one that remains – staying in the European Union.

JOHN ASHWORTH: No, no, no, no, no. The reason we are involved in politics, the reason why we put ourselves forward for elected office, is because we’re optimists. We believe that change is possible. I am perfectly confident that we can get a good deal, we can get a deal which is in the interests of British families and British businesses and the British economy, I am just very, very pessimistic that this Prime Minister, it is excruciating watching her Premiership, it really is being ripped part isn’t it and we are just very pessimistic that she can get a deal in the national interest. But we are in politics because we think that getting good for our constituents and strengthening our economy is possible so I don't think it’s an either/or, I don't think it’s a bad deal or stay in, I think we can get a good deal.

NP: But every week since we’ve spoken there has been a revision, a softening, a further detail as to Labour’s position on Brexit. How long must we wait before Labour actually starts being honest and talks about what a number of people on your back benches are talking about but not the front bench, a second referendum?

JOHN ASHWORTH: We are entirely honest, we’re entirely honest, we’ve outlined our position, we think for example there should be some transitional arrangements. Interestingly we said that and then a few weeks’ later Theresa May copied us in her Florence speech and said it as well so I think actually we are leading the debate, we’re leading the argument on these matters and we’re being entirely honest with the British people. We accept that the referendum came to a conclusion that we should leave the European Union but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try and get the very best deal for the British economy, I don't think the two positions are contradictory.

NP: As with Brexit, the Labour party doesn’t disagree in principle with Universal Credit, can you outline why in that opposition debate you were calling for a pause?

JOHN ASHWORTH: Because the roll out of it is not very satisfactory, is it? I mean people have to wait six weeks, all of us in our constituencies are getting examples from various advice bureaux and food banks and so on of the impact that Universal Credit is going to have on people. We know that there are many examples across the country of people being evicted, of people going into huge rent arrears and it is causing real hardship. Now when Universal Credit was first announced by Iain Duncan Smith, we agreed with the principle and still do agree with the principle but since then there have been cuts to the different elements of Universal Credit which means it is actually going to push people into poverty, poverty is going to increase under Universal Credit and one of the big selling points of Universal Credit when Iain Duncan Smith unveiled it, he said that it was going to be a great anti-poverty initiative. So there have been lots of cuts and changes to the design of Universal Credit over the last few years which we think is really going to hurt our constituents which is why we brought that motion to the House of Commons. The Tories didn’t have the courage of their convictions, they vanished, they scarpered – which by the way, if our constituents didn’t turn up to the Job Centre they’d be sanctioned for it – and it really was quite extraordinary. And I must say this, when we had Opposition Day Motions under a Labour government, I remember we lost one on the Ghurkha’s, Damian Green who is now the Deputy Prime Minister effectively, stood up in the House of Commons and said the will of the House was clear. He was making a big fuss about the opposition beating the government in that Opposition Day Motion and now ten years down the line, Tory MPs cannot even be bothered to vote on these motions. It’s really quite disgraceful.

NP: Mr Ashworth, we are heading into winter, traditionally the most difficult time for the NHS, how confident are you in the service’s ability to cope?

JOHN ASHWORTH: Sadly I’m not very confident at all. We are now in a situation where every single target in the hospital sector and the ambulance sector is being missed and you have got to remember that these are targets which have been weakened under the Tory government, they were much tougher targets under a Labour government and we used to meet them. The NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history, indeed on the current figures next year head for head across England the money will actually be falling, it will actually be cut, so what I’m saying is ahead of the budget, put extra money into the NHS, deal with the huge backlog that is facing the NHS …

NP: That extra money presumably in addition to the extra money that you want to see increase public sector pay, particularly in your brief in the health service?

JOHN ASHWORTH: Well indeed, they cannot find the money for the public sector pay increase from existing NHS budgets. If they do that, that will be incredibly unfair and it will mean wider cuts across the NHS but they have also got to deal with the social care crisis. We are bringing a motion to the House of Commons this week on social care calling on the government to reverse the cuts to social care, put the money into social care that is needed. At the moment the government is saying they are going to cut social care budgets that they give to local authorities because the local authorities have been unable to deal with some of what they call in the system ‘delayed discharges of care’, basically unable to cope with getting people the social care packages they need on time. We think cutting local authority budgets, penalising them for that, is no way to solve the social care crisis so we are calling on the government this week in the House of Commons to deal with social care and we’ll wait and see whether the Tory MPs actually bother to turn up to that as well but they have got to put in place …

NP: Mr Ashworth, I am so, so sorry, we are going to have to leave it there, we are literally just out of time, thank you so much for being with us.