Murnaghan 12.01.14 Interview with General Lord Dannatt

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Before the break I spoke to the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, about the allegations of torture by British forces in Iraq. Well General Richard Dannatt was Head of the Army for part of that time that those allegations relate to and he joins me now from Norfolk, a very good morning to you, Lord Dannatt. I mean these are very, very serious allegations about a thousand cases involving up 200 deaths, presumably they are allegations you refute very strongly?

LORD DANNATT: Well I think we all have to remember that it is very easy to make allegations, it is quite a different matter to investigate them and to prove that those allegations have got substance. I think as far as the Army’s record is concerned in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere in the past and I think in the future, where there are allegations we take them seriously and we investigate and when there is substance we bring people to due process and we’ve seen that in the small number of cases that have come to light with regard to Iraq in the past, the Baha Mousa case was the most obvious one, where a man died most shamefully in our custody and it led to a court martial, but I think these allegations are so widespread, there are so many of them, that if I’m absolutely honest I question the motivation slightly of those behind these and really what they are trying to do. There are so many allegations here that I think they are going to find it very hard to substantiate them and I think this is a very sad episode.

DM: But do you think, I mean it would be a huge embarrassment wouldn’t it for the UK if they end up before the International Criminal Court? You say you question some of the motivations perhaps behind the allegations but if it does end up before the ICC it just doesn’t look good for the UK.

LORD DANNATT: Well of course it doesn’t look good for the UK. It would look far worse for the UK if a substantial number of these allegations were substantiated and found to be true but, you can call me guilty of wishful thinking if you like but I know the British Army and British soldiers pretty well, this is not a common characteristic of them. Yes, you will occasionally get people who do the wrong thing and where those allegations are made and we investigate and we find that wrong things have been done, we put due process against those people but to suggest that this was a systemic, widespread, almost a matter of policy, I find that very hard to understand, very hard to accept and I would be very, very surprised if a case held up in somewhere like the ICC.

DM: And presumably one of the allegations you can kick out right now, the allegations contained within the numbers there that knowledge of this system, as the allegation is, went right to the top? You were at the top for a while.

LORD DANNATT: Well indeed. It didn’t go right to the top, I am not even terribly sure from what I’ve said already that these things actually took place. It is very easy to make allegations, it is a very different thing to investigate and substantiate them. The suggestion that I’ve read in The Independent this morning that the Secretary of State, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, a senior general, all knew of these things or could have been expected to know of these things. I mean that’s an amazing set of allegations to make and, as I say, I don’t think that they will be substantiable, will be provable. Yes, there will be the odd individual case and where that case is discovered then due process will be applied to those people. That’s what we always do and that’s the right thing to do.

DM: So are you satisfied then that within the UK itself we are investigating any allegations thoroughly enough and speedily enough? The Foreign Secretary pointed out the Iraq Historic Abuse Tribunal but that’s not reporting until 2016.

LORD DANNATT: Well the Chilcot Inquiry isn’t reporting with a great rush of speed either. I think these things do take too long but in the case of these allegations of brutality and wrong-doing, they have only just been made now in this dossier that has gone to the ICC so they must be investigated and looked at. As I’ve said several times this morning, it is one thing to make allegations, it is quite another thing to be able to prove them and again I say it, I may be guilty of wishful thinking but I don’t believe it is in the character of the British soldier, I don’t think it is in the character of the British people to engage in widespread brutality of this nature. I think it’s a most unfortunate set of allegations and let’s wait and see how this plays out but I am fairly optimistic, I am very optimistic that these allegations will not be proven.

DM: Okay, General Lord Dannatt, thank you very much indeed.