Murnaghan 31.08.14 Interview with Michael Fallon, Defence Secretary

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well then, the threat to the UK from international terrorism is now deemed to be severe.  It’s the second highest threat level and a sign of the times perhaps.  The Prime Minister is expected to announce tough new anti-terror measures tomorrow but what are we doing to tackle the threat abroad as well?  I’m joined now by the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, a very good morning to you Mr Fallon.  Let me ask you about this threat level, what difference does it make to the public?  They have been told to be more vigilant, presumably they are vigilant already. 

MICHAEL FALLON:  Yes, we certainly want the public to be vigilant, it also means we need to be more vigilant in guarding public buildings, in raising the readiness of our armed forces and the police, you’ll see more armed patrols, more activity around ports and airports and a step up in our surveillance.  We have to respond to the increased intelligence assessments now, that attacks are more likely on us, that’s intelligence the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and myself and the Home Secretary see on an almost daily basis.  Their assessment is that an attack now is more likely, there are a lot of people out there who have already, as you know, made attacks on the United Kingdom and we have to be better prepared for it.  

DM: But you know that Lord Ashdown writing in the Observer today points out that we had this threat level for many, many years during the decades of the 80s and 90s caused by the IRA and that in actual fact this is stoking fear amongst the public, it is a kneejerk reaction.

MICHAEL FALLON: Look, these are very real threats.  We have had tube trains blown up, London buses, Glasgow airport attacked, a soldier murdered in broad daylight – these are very real threats we are dealing with.  This isn’t any kind of kneejerk response, the Prime Minister made clear on Friday we need to be calm and measured about the way that we do this but when we look at our current instruments, our armoury of things or how we deal with these threats, there are some gaps.  We have had a number of young men going off to fight in Syria, a number of them slipping back home again and we need to make sure where we can, that we plug those existing gaps and the Prime Minister is going to go into more details about that to Parliament tomorrow.

DM: Well presumably it’s removing their passports.  You know who they are then, you’ve got to know who they are. 

MICHAEL FALLON: We have a lot of intelligence as to the sort of people who have been doing this and whether their movement into Syria and Iraq and movement away from it, as to what more we can do to tighten that up and you’ll hear more details about that when the Prime Minister reports to Parliament tomorrow. 

DM: This figure that is bandied around, it has been bandied around for many, many months now, 500.  Just that?  If you have got that detailed intelligence it must go up and down, why not more specific than 500 and Khalid Mahmood said it’s something like 1500 – there’s a big discrepancy.  He is of course the MP for Birmingham Perry Barr.

MICHAEL FALLON: Nobody has an exact number and …

DM: Well exactly.

MICHAEL FALLON: … but we know it is several hundred and we are already seeing more arrests, more surveillance and a determined effort by the security forces here to keep tabs on these people but what they’ve told us is that there are some gaps in the existing procedures and the existing legislation and the Prime Minister is going to tell Parliament tomorrow how we propose to tighten those up.

DM: Okay, just on the numbers though, I want to stay on that, I just want to push you a bit more on what can be done before we hear from the Prime Minister but 700 recruits are estimated to be fighting for Islamic State from France, 320 from Germany, 250 from Belgium, 130 from the Netherlands, 51 from Spain – well they can all come here.  Whatever you do about the UK nations they can come here under their EU passports.

MICHAEL FALLON: Well I think this is the point.  This is now a threat to Western Europe generally, this is going on on our doorstep and this does involve us because these are fighters who can return from Syria and Iraq to Western Europe.  We are all involved in this, this is why we have to do it on a coordinated European level, we have the NATO summit in Wales taking place later this week and we have to do this collectively, it’s not just for one country on its own. 

DM: Okay, what about these TPIMs, what about bringing back or something like control orders?  I was talking to Hazel Blears who was formerly at the Home Office and very deeply involved in bringing in control orders, is that something you are thinking about and are the Lib Dems a problem when it comes to that? 

MICHAEL FALLON:  I think the major problem with control orders has been the courts actually, it hasn’t been the Liberal Democrats, it’s been the courts wanting to make sure that people aren’t being detained unnecessarily if they have not actually been charged but we are now looking at all these things.  We have to stiffen up our defences now, we have to take this threat seriously and as I say, Parliament will be given more details by the Prime Minister tomorrow.  

DM: But it is legal advice you’re getting that you can find a way round the courts? 

MICHAEL FALLON: Well we are looking at these various gaps into people we know who want to do this country harm, we know want to carry out attacks on members of our Armed Forces or on shopping centres or whatever it is, we know there are people out there who wish this country harm and we need to do more to stop them and we are going to look very hard now at the various details.

DM: Let me get it right, you mentioned the NATO meeting in Wales, President Obama of course in the United Kingdom and perhaps we think the first serving American President to visit Wales, he’s trying to form as he says a coalition of the willing.  We know the Americans have been bombing IS position in Iraq, why isn’t the RAF joining in?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well we haven’t been asked to join in air strikes or to put combat troops on the ground, what we are doing ….

DM: You haven’t been asked?  President Obama has said he is trying to get a coalition together, he must have asked the UK.

MICHAEL FALLON: No, we haven’t been asked, I can confirm we have not been asked to participate either in sending troops on the ground or in joining in …

DM: What about air strikes?

MICHAEL FALLON: Nor in joining in air strikes but let me be clear what we have been doing.  We have been putting in humanitarian aid, I can confirm that last night I authorised two Hercules to participate in the big aid drop on Amirli, a town that has been under siege for nearly two months and the RAF dropped fourteen tons of food and water there for a Shia population that has been completely besieged.  We are assisting with surveillance, we are helping the Americans there on that, we are doing everything we can to underpin the new Abadi government in Iraq, the democratic legitimate government of Iraq and we are doing everything we can internationally to co-ordinate action against ISIL and we are all involved in this.  Last night, by the way, in the relief operation for Amirli, there were French, Australian, American and British aircraft involved together.

DM: But is that it, is that as far as British activity in Iraq or indeed in Syria will go?  It’s always going to be on the relief side, on the humanitarian side, could it or will it move into the offensive side?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well we have already seen American air strikes and we support those air strikes.  Everything that’s been done and that we are doing in Iraq, I need to be clear is done at the invitation or with the permission of the Iraqi authorities and is to help the Iraqi government and to help the Kurdish forces in the battle that they are now fighting against ISIL.

DM: But British air strikes, the RAF dropping bombs, firing missiles, will that happen defensively?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well we’ve not been asked to participate in air strikes, we welcome what the Americans are doing and of course we will look at  any other further action the Iraqi government thinks would help.  We have been involved in ferrying supplies, supplies of arms as well as non-lethal equipment, from Eastern European countries, the Peshmerga and the Kurdish forces tend to use Eastern European equipment and ammunition, we have been involved in transporting supplies and we will continue to look favourably on any other requests to do that, to make sure that they ….

DM: Look favourably, you’ve used that as your get out twice now, we’ve not been asked.  You know my next question, if you are asked by the Iraqis, by the Americans or indeed one or the other or both, will UK forces participate in strikes against Islamic State?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well that hasn’t arisen yet, that simply hasn’t arisen and …

DM: But presumably you’d say yes, if the Americans say look, we need your expertise, we need your weaponry, we need your pilots, we need your air force, will you join us?  The UK says yes doesn’t it?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well we’re helping in the way that we can at the moment.  We’re helping with humanitarian aid, we’re helping with surveillance, we’re helping with counter-terrorism, we’re supporting the Abadi government, we’re helping internationally.  We have not been asked to commit either combat troops on the ground and we’re not going to do that and we’ve not been asked to join in other air strikes although we certainly welcome them.

DM: I’m surprised at your reticence, given how supportive the special relationship, you could just say yes, if we’re asked we will join in.  It was only a year ago – and this is perhaps what I’m pushing at – it was only a year ago when Parliament had been recalled and was talking about joint air strikes with the Americans against Syria, of course Parliament voted it down.  Hasn’t that scarred you and your party and that’s why you’re not going to say that the UK will participate in any air strikes?

MICHAEL FALLON: That was a very specific motion in front of Parliament to authorise military action to stop the use of chemical weapons, it was a very specific motion and, as you know, Parliament took the view that we should not get involved in military action.  Look, we want to do more, we certainly want to do more to help the Iraqi government and the Kurdish forces resist the spread of ISIL and …

DM: What about blowing up some of the operatives on the ground, some of whom we’ve been discussing earlier may come back to the UK and try and carry out terrorist acts.  If they are involved in terrorist acts there and you can hit them, why not?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well it is not quite as simple as that.

DM: The Americans are doing it.

MICHAEL FALLON: Well the Americans are doing air strikes at the request and support of the Iraqi and Kurdish forces, we have not been asked to commit to air strikes but we are helping in lots of other ways on the humanitarian side, on the supply of arms and equipment and on surveillance and I’m doing everything we can in terms of helping the Iraqi government in this struggle that they have now against ISIL.

DM: I want to ask you obviously about Ukraine and the situation there seeming to be worsening.  At the NATO summit meeting we’ve had the European Union saying that sanctions will be tightened, is that going to be enough to stop someone as determined as President Putin?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well sanctions are having some effect, they are affecting the Russian economy now, they are weakening its GDP, they are adding to inflation in Russia, they are certainly having some effect.

DM: But it’s long term isn’t it?  If you see the situation on the ground in Ukraine it’s getting worse.

MICHAEL FALLON: But they are having an effect, the European leaders were very clear last night that if Putin does not stop the incursions that we’ve seen over the border now, and there is real evidence of troops and vehicles being moved across the border into Ukraine, into sovereign Ukrainian territory, if he does not stop those incursions then he is going to face further sanctions.

DM: But that’s it.  We know that the Lithuanians and other former Soviet States who are members of NATO saying, well look, we have got to do more, we may have to do something militarily, help the Ukrainians with arms and things like that.

MICHAEL FALLON: Well the President of Ukraine will be at the NATO summit this week and Ukraine is not yet a member of NATO but what we will be doing …

DM: You’d like to see it being a member?

MICHAEL FALLON: Well they are now looking at whether they should join NATO.  What we will be doing in the NATO summit is getting the other members of NATO to focus on what more can be done to reassure Eastern members of NATO, particularly the Baltic states, Poland and Romania, by way of more large scale exercises – I’ve authorised the deployment of an entire battle group to take part in the new exercise from September right through to December in Poland, there are going to be over 3000 British troops involved in these countries this year and next year in larger scale exercises and we’ve also got to get the NATO countries to commit to spend more on defence.  We’re spending 2% of our GDP on defence now …

DM: Not as much as the Americans are spending.

MICHAEL FALLON: We’re spending 2%, other countries have committed to doing that.  France, with all its economic difficulties, is spending nearly 2%, Poland is committed to increasing, so is Turkey but the other countries which aren’t have really got to do more, we simply can’t leave this to the Americans.  This is a threat now on our own doorstep.

DM: Lastly, I wanted to ask you about the threat on the Conservative doorstep, Douglas Carswell’s defection to UKIP, standing in a by-election.  Are you disheartened by this poll showing Douglas Carswell with a 44% lead here?  You’ve got to give up on Clacton haven’t you?

MICHAEL FALLON: No, he’s had a lot of publicity through his defection and it’s obviously disappointing but it is also rather illogical.   He stood for election last time when there wasn’t a referendum pledge, now there is a referendum pledge he’s decided to leave.  The only way you are going to get a referendum – and we haven’t had a referendum since 1975, you didn’t vote in the last referendum, Dermot, you were too young if you recall, you were just too young – we haven’t had a referendum, you have to be over 57 if I can help with the arithmetic, you have to be over 57 to have had a vote on Europe.  David Cameron is the only leader who is promising that vote, a yes/no vote on Europe, and is promising to go for a series of reforms to make sure we do deal with the free movement of people who are claiming benefits, we have put a stop to that, we prevent ever closer union amongst the member states and we do more to restore powers to our own parliament.

DM: How worried are you that other Conservative MPs are teetering?  We know there are plenty that sympathise with Douglas Carswell and sympathise with some of UKIPs aims.

MICHAEL FALLON: I think people see the bigger point here.   The only prospect of delivering an in/out referendum is a clear Conservative majority at the next election, anything else and you’ll end up with a Miliband government that wants no change at all in Europe.

DM: Well that’s the argument.  Did you read Nigel Farage writing in the Sun on Sunday today saying he wants to see this become the beginning of something big and that he says UKIP may hold the balance of power after the next general election, could the Conservatives if they were the largest party – or indeed a minority party – could they do a deal with UKIP after something like that?

MICHAEL FALLON: We’re after a full majority Conservative government at the next election and the reason we want that is that is the only way we can deal with this European issue, by going for the reforms we need and then having a referendum and giving everybody a chance to vote and only a Conservative government will do that.  The Liberal Democrats aren’t interested in it, Labour won’t change anything in Europe and UKIP can’t change anything in Europe.

DM: But isn’t there a danger, Mr Fallon, that – and we know there will be no deals and Nigel Farage says there will be no deals while Mr Cameron is in charge of the Conservative party – that individual Conservative MPs have discussions with UKIP and say okay, I sympathise with almost everything you say here, so don’t put anyone up against me or don’t put up anyone strong or campaign too hard in individual constituencies?

MICHAEL FALLON: No, I don’t see that as the answer and I’m sure most Conservative MPs are going to see that this is the only party that can deliver a referendum and give you the prospect of voting yes or no for the first time since 1975 and to do so on the package of a series of reforms that the Prime Minister is already engaged in, getting more open trading, more competitive Europe, more control for national parliaments and putting an end to people coming to Britain simply to claim benefits.  We can deliver those reforms, we can give people a referendum but we can only do that with a full Conservative majority.

DM: Secretary of State, thank you very much indeed, very good to see you.  Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary there.