Murnaghan Interview with Angus Robertson MP, SNP Leader in Westminster, 8.05.16

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now last week was a difficult one for the government, forced into two U turns in the space of three days.  One of those was on child refugees from Europe with the Prime Minister facing a rebellion from his own backbenchers, agreeing to accept unaccompanied children from Europe’s camps.  It’s a subject on which the SNP’s Westminster Leader, Angus Robertson, has been leading the charge and he joins me now from Elgin, a very good morning to you.  Just let me ask you about that, it’s been said and you’ve heard it before I know, that the SNP in Westminster is the real opposition, particularly on an issue like that.  Are you rather filling the voice left by Labour beset by all its troubles?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Well very good morning from sunny Speyside and yes, the SNP is the effective opposition at Westminster, the Labour party is spending more time fighting each other than fighting the Tories and there are a whole series of issues that matter to voters in Scotland but across the rest of the United Kingdom too from austerity to issues like how we deal with refugees and on these it’s the SNP that has been leading the charge and we will continue to do so.  We’ve got bid discussions coming up shortly on remaining within the European Union or being taken out against our will or whether we’re going to waste the best part of £200 billion replacing weapons of mass destruction. On these issues the SNP will be battling, on austerity, on Europe, on Trident and trying to make sure the Tories do not cut away from the public services that really matter across the UK and in devolved Scotland where we now have that straight fight between the SNP, re-elected to government and the Tory opposition.

DM: Is it the fact that then that inadvertently, because of the analysis you’ve given us there of the state of play in Westminster, that the stays are becoming loosened as it were on that SNP self-denying ordinance that you didn’t get involved in affairs that didn’t affect Scotland?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Well we always said that where we could forge a progressive majority in Westminster we would do that but there are issues that have come along that have actually impacted in Scotland.  Let’s take Sunday trading as an example which people say, oh this was only a proposal that was going to impact in England.  Well no it wasn’t because the government gave no safeguards to the knock-on consequences to workers in Scotland  so that would have been a retrograde step and that’s why we signalled that we would be opposing the government on that and it caused them to U turn on their plans.  Similarly, on issues like the refugee question, because of sustained opposition – yes from the SNP but from others too, goodness me, Alf Dubbs in the House of Lords, Yvette Cooper from the Labour party, there are people right across the House and including Conservatives who don’t like much which the Tories are actually doing.  So where we can we will work with others, the government at Westminster only has a majority of 12, often on an issue by issue basis they won’t have a majority at all and the SNP will work constructively with other parties at Westminster to oppose the Tories and Nicola Sturgeon, re-elected as First Minister in the Scottish Parliament, what a result that was with the SNP vote going up and is actually having more MSPs, Members of the Scottish Parliament, than the next three parties combined, we will work with other parties in Westminster and in the Scottish parliament to try and get the best …

DM: Not as many as you had.  

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Well indeed, that’s the way that the electoral system works, curious isn’t it?  Yes, we won more seats in the constituencies, we won more votes than any political party has ever won in the Scottish parliament but because we have a proportional system it gave us a result that we got which gave us, as I say, more than all of the next three parties added together but there’s still a pro-independence majority in the Scottish parliament so we will fight for the best deal there and deliver the best in terms of public services and reform to our public services and at the same time at Westminster we will oppose the Tories tooth and nail and work as the effective opposition not just on issues that matter directly to people in Scotland but also the rest of the UK and on matters such as Europe and international affairs where sadly the Labour party has taken its eye off the ball.

DM: I just want to get back to that issue in Westminster there and see it through the focus, that very important issue of child refugees, you mentioned there the Labour figures who were involved on that issue, Yvette Cooper and Lord Dubbs, of course Labour tabled that amendment but Mr Corbyn didn’t ask any questions about it at the last session of Prime Minister’s Questions.  Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is pretty useless?

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Well on this issue, yes.  On others perhaps less so but often I am sat there, because I get as the SNP leader at Westminster, I get two questions every week and of course I have to follow Jeremy Corbyn and I sit there often and think what on earth is he asking about?  It’s not the issue of the day, it’s not the issue of the week and this refugee question is a classic. For the last two weeks it’s what I’ve been raising as the SNP leader at Westminster, he hasn’t, it’s come from the Labour backbenchers, from the likes of Yvette Cooper so on the issues that matter often it’s the SNP which is raising them and I will continue to do that.  What Jeremy Corbyn decides to ask is up to him and I know many voters around the country are asking, what are the questions that he is asking and of course the results for the Labour party with the honourable exception of Sadiq Khan in London who I congratulate and note with horror the nature of the dog whistle campaign that the Tories ran in London but back to Westminster, we will take our opportunities to ask the things that really matter to people here and the rest of the UK.  If the Labour party wants to continue to miss the ball week after week, that’s up to them but we will continue to be the effective opposition.  That’s what we were sent there to do, that’s what we will continue to do.

DM: I’m interested, do you think that Labour tripping over in front of the goal as you termed it there, could ultimately have an impact on the timing of another independence referendum in Scotland in that progressive thinkers in Scotland, even some of them who currently support the Union, may think well listen, we’re never going to see another Labour government, we’ve got to get out of this Union.

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Well this is a huge part of the interest and the realignment of what is going on in Scottish politics, so not only a year ago did the SNP win almost every single constituency in Scotland and the Labour party being almost wiped out, only holding one seat, that’s exactly what happened this time, the SNP winning almost all of the constituency seats, the Labour party losing almost all of theirs.  If you were a Labour voter who has stuck with the Labour party in Scotland through thick and thin, you must be asking yourself why are we run by a party, the Tories, who have only one seat in Scotland at Westminster and polled just over 20%, how long can this go on?  I’m sure the longer this goes on and if there were to be a re-elected Tory government the next UK election – I mean does anybody really think that Jeremy Corbyn is going to be the next British Prime Minister?  I don't think so.  For that reason I think a lot of people in Scotland, as you suggest, will ask themselves how long can this go on for?  This question of whether or when there will be an independence referendum in Scotland is not up to politicians, it’s not up to the SNP, it’s certainly not up to the Tories to say to people in Scotland they can’t have one.  If people want one and if they want independence that’s up to them.  Nobody should stand in their way.  People don’t want that at the present time, the polls have shifted in the direction of independence but it’s not a majority yet and there isn’t a demand for that referendum to take place yet, if it should happen – whenever that is – that’s exactly what will happen.  

DM: But it could change pretty quickly couldn’t it?  If the UK votes to leave the European Union you’d have one lickedy-spit.

ANGUS ROBERTSON: Well if we’re taken out of the European Union against our will that’s a material change in circumstances.  Voters in Scotland were told to vote against independence as a way of staying within the European Union and should it come about that we are taken out when voting to remain in, that will make a whole load of people think, well the game’s a bogey.  Now do I want that circumstance?  No, I do not want the United Kingdom to leave the EU and take Scotland out, I don’t want that so I’ll be campaigning to remain within the EU.  I would prefer if and when the people in Scotland want to have a referendum that we can do that on its own merits and that people are convinced on the basis of the positive ideas, the positive reasons for independence or the positive reasons to remain within the UK as opposed to the Project Fear nonsense we had in 2014 and which frankly we’re hearing a lot of in the European referendum now. That is what I hope for in the future but it is the people in a democracy who are in the driving seat and in the meantime the SNP will continue to be the effective opposition, fighting day to day, week to week on the issues that matter at re-elected an historic third term of SNP government with Nicola Sturgeon as First Minister, prepared to work across the parties and constructively, that is how we will approach things.  I think that is what the public like and for that reason I think the support for independence will go up because they will see the alternative is continuing Tory austerity, being governed by a party we haven’t even elected that frankly thinks it can do whatever it likes in Scotland.  Well I think the time will come when people in Scotland say we’ve had enough of this.

DM: Mr Robertson, great talking to you.  Angus Robertson there, the SNPs Westminster leader.