Murnaghan Interview with Chris Grayling MP, Leader of the House and Leave campaigner, 19.06.16

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now the case being made for so-called Brexit is based on three things that are completely untrue – those are the words of the Prime Minister in an interview with the Sunday Times this morning.  Mr Cameron also compared his rivals to irresponsible parents putting their children in a dangerous car.  I am joined now by Chris Grayling the Leader of the House of Commons and Vote Leave campaigner.  A very good morning to you, Mr Grayling and first of all, Jo Cox, you are Leader of the House, it’s such an important day tomorrow with the House being recalled.  

CHRIS GRAYLING: It is, this has been a deeply shocking experience for everyone in politics. I think people don’t often realise that behind the scenes in Westminster, they see the hurly-burly but actually there are genuinely good relations that exist between people in different parties across different part of the House and every single one of the 650 members of parliament will be shocked, will be grieving.  This was one of us doing her job out on the street in her constituency, it could have been any member of parliament so we mourn her loss.  We feel deeply, deeply for her family and tomorrow will be a sombre occasion but I hope also an occasion to remember somebody who, although she only spent a short time in parliament, had already made an impact and  had clearly made friends across all sides of the House.

DM: Can I just ask you on the House rules, some people have been asking me today, are MPs free to mingle on the benches?  Are there any rules that say you have to sit as parties, as government and opposition?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: I don't think there are any formal rules but I think for tomorrow’s event it is a celebration and a commemoration and an expression of profound sadness and to my mind it is an occasion where people should do what they feel comfortable doing.   

DM: Do you think it will have a lasting effect on political discourse?  There has been the Chancellor and others saying today they want to see less inflammatory rhetoric, that it should change and particularly when the public mainly see things like Prime Minister’s questions when it can get pretty lairy.

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I always think politicians should seek to be reasonable but it’s a democracy and we are always going to have lively debates and that shouldn’t stop because of one tragedy but of course I hope that discourse in this country will always be responsible and sensible and measured, that’s what we should always aspire to do but the idea that a lively democracy like ours will not have lively debate, that’ll never happen.  What we have got to do is to make sure that actually we treat everyone in politics decently and that matters particularly for those outside as well, those contacting members of parliament, those writing about members of parliament.  You know, there are 650 men and women from different persuasions, from different communities, who represent wholly different parts of the country and almost invariably those who arrive in Westminster do so because they want to make the country a better place.  We might not agree with each other but everybody really shares that same goal.

DM: Let me ask you how you see the Prime Minister’s comments today, fitting in with whether it is lively debate or Project Fear, saying that your side of the campaign is based on three basic lies, we’ll get onto them in more detail in a moment, but your overall feeling and that you are like irresponsible parents putting children in a dodgy car.

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I wouldn’t accuse anyone on the other side of lying, people have a different perspective on these issues.  

DM: But is that just part of the debate or has he gone too far, is it Project Fear?   

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well look, I mean the Prime Minister must answer for the words he uses.  Yes, this has been a lively campaign, yes there have been things that have been said that I don’t agree with. It is worth remembering it is only a few months since the Prime Minister himself said actually we’d do fine outside the European Union and he left open the possibility of leaving at the end of his negotiation so I hope in the last few days everybody will actually be constructive and argue their point of view.  This matters enormously to us on Thursday, there are strong arguments on both sides, both sides of the debate making very strong arguments, the public will have to decide which of us is right.  

DM: Okay but on those three points that he said are based on untruths, the idea that Turkey is going to join the European Union any time soon, that there is going to be a European army and that there is £350 million a week going to the European Union.  We all know that none of those things are true.  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well the situation with Turkey, it is government policy that Turkey should join and the European Union is currently accelerating talks on Turkey’s membership. It is true to say that Serbia, Albania and other countries in the Balkan regions are likely to join first …

DM: But the UK has an absolute veto on Turkish succession.   

CHRIS GRAYLING: It does but it is British government policy that Turkey should join, it is worth remembering that.  On the £350 million, if you apply for a job and the salary on the job advert says £30,000 a year, what it doesn’t say £30,000 but we’ll be taking off tax and we’ll deduct National Insurance and if you are a member of pension scheme then we’ll knock off some money extra and actually you’ll only be getting £23,000.  Actually what it says is headline £30,000.  Our gross contribution, our overall contribution to the European Union according to the Office of National Statistics is £367 million a week, £350 million a week rounded.  From that we get about half back in the form of a rebate a year later and in the form of grants to farmers and universities which we would certainly carry on.  The other half we never see again, it disappears to be spent elsewhere in Europe and that’s the money we could and should spend on other priorities.  

DM: So you’re saying back at you, Prime Minister?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I’m saying that he’s setting out a view and I’m setting out a view for the other side of the argument and we’ll have the debate…

DM: He’s saying you’re telling untruths and you’re saying we’re not.  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well we are colleagues, I respect the Prime Minister enormously and I am going to put my side of the argument, he shall put his and after the referendum on Thursday, whatever the result, we’ll carry on working together in the interests of the country to deliver the social changes that we need.

DM: And what about your side of the argument, the broad side of the argument in this poster from Nigel Farage and co, Breaking Point, with a long queue of refugees/immigrants/migrants wanting to get into the European Union?

CHRIS GRAYLING: Two points on this, first of all I think the poster is wrong and secondly, it’s the wrong argument because the argument about migration in this referendum campaign is not about people or colour or creed or country of origin, it’s actually about the simple fact that if we continue to absorb in this country every year a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne, it puts huge pressure on housing, on school places, on our roads, on our rail system, on the health service and I don't think we can carry on with a situation where we have no ability to set any limits on the people coming in to work in the United Kingdom.  

DM: You say it’s wrong, Michael Gove your colleague in the campaign and in the party, said he shuddered when he saw it, you didn’t react like that?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I said I think it’s wrong, the poster is wrong, I don't think it should have been done, I don't think I can be much clearer than that.  

DM: Well it’s not as strong is it, people are saying it’s vile as well.

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well I think this poster was the wrong thing to do, I don't know it’s appropriate …

DM: Wrong tactically or just wrong?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Just wrong, just plain wrong.  

DM: Is it racist?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: I am not going to use evocative language, I am just going to say it’s wrong, it’s the wrong poster, it was the wrong approach, it’s the wrong view.  I take the view, Dermot, that this country has benefitted enormously from migration, from being a cosmopolitan country, we’ve got communities in the United Kingdom that have made a real difference to us, the argument now is not about those people who have come here who are working hard in the United Kingdom already, it’s about the flow of people in the future, the pressure it puts on housing.  If we continue to see that level of population arrive in the UK every year, how do we do the right think in making sure that the next generation here already – from all backgrounds and all origins – can get on the housing ladder, can afford the rents in our properties, that there is space on the trains in the morning?  That’s the real debate about migration.  

DM: Lastly, whatever the result, do you think you are going to keep your job and the Prime Minister should keep his?  Things stay the same whatever the result from your point of view within the Conservative party and its leadership?

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well he can decide on my job, that’s for him, but as far as I’m concerned he stays in his job.  We need him whatever the result is, whether we vote to leave when we’ll need him because we’re going to need his personal relationships in Europe, we’re going to need the leadership he can provide in working with other European countries to ensure a smooth departure but also because I think he has been instrumental in leading a government that’s turned our economy round since 2010 and I don’t want that to change.  

DM: But it has also been said about you and the way you personally have campaigned to leave, that you have been avoiding the so-called ‘blue on blue’ and that others within the campaign will be punished who haven’t avoided that, who have criticised elements of current government policy, do you see that?  From John Whittingdale, Priti Patel, people like that, they have got it a bit wrong in the tone of their campaign?

CHRIS GRAYLING: I don't think this should be about punishment, I think it’s about people who believe passionately about something and are arguing  for it.  The Prime Minister did the right thing in giving all of us freedom to make our case on the different sides of the argument, that is a mature democracy and yes, it’s been a lively debate, it was always going to be a lively debate but ultimately what makes this different is that the people decide on Thursday and we will all have to pay attention and listen to what they say, accept their verdict and get on with the job of whatever follows from that.   

DM: And he should give a big job to Boris Johnson?  

CHRIS GRAYLING: Well he’ll decide on what he does with Boris.  Boris has been a great campaigner in this country for many years and I’m sure he has got a major role to play in government and in all the other things he seeks to do, which are usually pretty multiple.  

DM: Okay, Leader of the House, thank you very much indeed. Chris Grayling there.