Murnaghan Interview with John McDonnell, MP, Shadow Chancellor, 17.07.16

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Now then, the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, was listening to that interview and he joins me now from south London, a very good morning to you Mr McDonnell.  Well on these EU exit negotiations, what do you make of that?  Give me your thoughts first of all about the potential treatment of EU nationals.

JOHN MCDONNELL: Just a correction, my constituency is in West London.  On these nationals, look I have a lot of time for David Davis, I’ve worked with him over the years on a whole range of campaigns and he is a very sincere person but I am really, really shocked that as someone who is campaigning for Brexit these questions weren’t addressed in advance either by him, campaigning for Brexit or by the government preparing for either option of the decision.  I tell you, people are very, very worried, they are very insecure. Both UK citizens in the EU, again many of us in our constituencies have a number of former constituents who are living in the European Union who now feel very insecure but also EU citizens living here, they need to cast iron guarantees that both groups are protected.  What David Davies is saying is quite clearly these preparations have not been made and it just makes people even more insecure and I am extremely worried. But what I’ll do, let me make my position clear, from the Labour party we’ve offered the government to work on a bipartisan basis on this issue to try and get the best deal for the UK but the best deal in terms of UK citizens both in the EU but also EU citizens living here.  So I am hoping we can quickly come to some agreement on this because we can’t leave … David is suggesting leaving it another six months before they even get to a position of starting the discussion, that’s not acceptable.

DM: I’m sorry, just to be explicit here Mr McDonnell, are you saying Labour will be saying to EU nationals, anyone who arrived until the point at which Britain leaves the European Union is free to stay?  

JOHN MCDONNELL: What we’ve said is that existing EU citizens here now should be given the basic right to live here, they should have their rights guaranteed, the same with UK citizens in the EU, that’s one of our red lines.  This should have been thought about by the government but also by David Davis and other campaigners around Brexit in advance of their argument for leaving the European Union.  I’m just saying that at the moment the government seems to be in disarray on this matter.  

DM: All right, let’s talk about disarray, you used the word yourself, would you term that about the leadership issue within your own party?  We have now got two declared challengers to Mr Corbyn and you feel they should just give up now don’t you?


JOHN MCDONNELL: I don't want a leadership election but if we’re going to have one, let’s move in an orderly way into that election, have it as a very democratic and open exercise with a range of candidates, have the debate about polities, do it in an amicable and comradely way and then when the members of our party make their decision about who is best to be leader, who they want to be leader, then we unite around that leader and we campaign in the run up to the next general election whenever it comes. But also the issue for me is just as you have explored with David Davis, our country is facing some really difficult issues now and we need an effective opposition so it’s important that we come together now in terms of the Labour party to provide that effective opposition, working not opposing things for opposition sake but also in some instances working in a bipartisan way with the government to get the best deal for our country.  

DM: What is your feeling, again as I discussed with David Davis, if Britain doesn’t get access to the single market, as Shadow Chancellor do you believe that the economic omens then would be dire?

JOHN MCDONNELL: We’ve set out, we’re the only party to do it, we’ve set out some red lines for negotiations.  One of them is open access to that market because yes, it’s important that we trade with the rest of the world, that we develop trade deals with other countries around the world, around the globe, that is important but Europe is our biggest market so it is important for us that we get open access to that, that’s the first thing. The second thing we’ve said is we need the guarantee of EU employment rights for workers here and for workers within Europe itself, there are issues also around the financial sector which is under threat now, we need to ensure the passporting agreements with the European Union are maintained, we need to ensure our investment in the European Investment Bank is protected and maintained and that we continue to get investment in our country so those red lines we’ve set out already and I’m saying to the government we want to discuss this with you but we want to get in discussions with our European partners as quickly as possible.  Jeremy Corbyn has already met with the leaders of the Socialist and Social Democratic parties across Europe, we’ve got a pretty good response from them in terms of co-operation and how we can go forward in these discussions about creating a new relationship with Europe where we can overcome some of the disbenefits of our European Union membership but really gain and maintain most of the benefits that we had.

DM: Okay, let’s return to the state of the debate within your party at the moment.  Jeremy Corbyn said this, I know you saw him say it last weekend, that debate should be respectful, debate should be polite, I urge people not to use abuse of any sort.  Then we saw you pop up at a meeting didn’t we, just remind our viewers.  

JOHN MCDONNELL: Oh I know.   [Video clip]

DM: Not really listening to what your own leader is saying there are you?

JOHN MCDONNELL: No, no,  it wasn’t good.  I am extremely contrite about that.  I promised Jeremy I wouldn’t appear on any stand-up comedy events or make any more jokes and I behave myself and I let him down I’m afraid so I’m extremely contrite about that.  Jeremy is exactly right and Angela Eagle said exactly the same thing this morning, we’ve got to maintain this debate in a comradely way so yes, I let myself down and it won’t happen again.  What we need to do though is have an honest debate and also I want a range of candidates on the ballot paper.  Last year I nominated Angela to be on the ballot paper for Deputy because I wanted a range of candidates but I particularly wanted a woman on the ballot paper as well and there are reports in the papers today that there are attempts to bully Angela off the ballot paper and I think that is unacceptable. We’ve got to have a range of candidates and to be honest, this is 2016 and if we didn’t have a woman on the ballot paper, this isn’t 1916, we need to have a spread of candidates, a proper debate and make sure we are reflecting our society overall as well.

DM: But Shadow Chancellor, you try to laugh off that meeting, you make out it was just poorly expressed, you didn’t mean it, you’re sorry but people are forming the view now that you say one thing in public like you’re saying to me now but when you  feel you’re in private or amongst your own, you say another and it is the leadership sets the tone of this debate and you’re using some pretty strong language.

JOHN MCDONNELL: That wasn’t a private meeting, there were cameras all around me, I just made a mistake.  The one thing – well whether people like me or not, the one thing about me is what you see is what you get and if I do drop, if I make a mistake I admit it and I apologise and I move on.  We’re human beings, I know we’re politicians but we’re also human beings as well and that was done, it was as Stand Up for Labour comedy event and all the rest of it, I made a mistake, apologised and move on.  The most important thing now is the debate that we now have from hereon in is that comradely and friendly debate.  It was last year, all the candidates got on pretty well all throughout the campaign and I’m hoping that’s what will happen this time and I don’t want anybody forced off the ballot paper.  The most important thing is if we are going to have a leadership election, let’s have a representative one and let the members decide and when the members decide in a democratic fashion then we unite behind the leader and we serve them.

DM: But it’s not happening is it, Mr McDonnell.  We’ve heard these protestations coming from the leadership for many months now.  Iain McNichol, your General Secretary, has suspended party meetings because he says, and I quote, “In recent months there has been a marked increase in reports of intimidation and threatening behaviour taking place at party meetings, safety is threatened.  It sounds like it is getting pretty lairy in some of those meetings.

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well any form of abuse is unacceptable and again we have methods to tackle that and if anyone behaves in any way that is unacceptable, we have disciplinary procedures and we just kick them out of the party, it’s as simple as that.  I don’t believe in suspending meetings though, I think that …

DM: Iain McNichol says in recent months, there are several months to work on, how many people have suspended from the party for intimidation and threatening behaviour?  

JOHN MCDONNELL: Well again that’s down to Iain McNichol as the General Secretary. The elected members of the party like myself don’t have anything to do with that process and if Iain thinks there is a problem he should be acting on it and if anyone is being abusive in any form who are members of this party, they actually should be taken … but that’s down to the General Secretary and the party machinery, it is not down to elected members.  All we can do is make sure the message goes out exactly has Jeremy has done, he has published a Code of Conduct saying this is the way people should behave and we have got to try and make sure people adhere to that and I think they will.  I have heard from all the candidates this morning, they really want a comradely and friendly and amicable debate and I think that will take place.  Sticking to the policies and not the personalities.  

DM: Okay Mr McDonnell, thank you very much indeed, the Shadow Chancellor there in West London.