Murnaghan Interview with John McDonnell MP, Shadow Chancellor, 29.11.15

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: Well now, this week looks set to be a key one for the Labour leadership.  The party is under pressure to clarify its position on air strikes in Syria ahead of a vote potentially as early as Wednesday.  The Shadow Chancellor has described it as a matter of moral conscience suggesting the vote should be a free one and of course there’s the question of Chairman Mao’s Little Red Book, maybe a bit more about that later.  John McDonnell joins me now as you can see, a very good morning to you Mr McDonnell.  A free vote then, you stick by that, this is a matter of conscience and Labour MPs should be able to vote accordingly without being forced by the leadership?  

JOHN MCDONNELL:  I think all MPs should be put in that position, I hope David Cameron will allow his members to have a free vote as well.  I’ve held that position now for, well I’ve been in parliament for 18 years so all that time I’ve been on the basis that this is above party politics and it should be down to the individual MP consulting his constituency obviously and coming forward with his or view on the safety of his or her own constituents and the country at large as well.  

DM: Why didn’t Jeremy Corbyn say that this morning?  You must have talked to him about this and the way you’ve been painted into a corner on this, so what’s the discussion been?

JOHN MCDONNELL:  No, no, look, you’ve got to get used to this in the media about the new politics within the Labour party.  What Jeremy has done is set out his own view about the issue around bombing but also he has made it clear that the party members, our Shadow Cabinet, our National Executive Committee, our parliamentary Labour party, will all have a view of expressing their views.  He has undertook a consultation, he is closing that consultation by the end of today and then he will make a decision and recommend that to the Shadow Cabinet, take it to the Shadow Cabinet, it’s the leader’s decision in the end.  I am hoping he has taken my view into account just as much as anybody else’s and I’m hoping – and I say this again, I’m asking David Cameron to do the same thing as well and to have a free vote across the House.  

DM: Okay but what is Mr Corbyn up to then saying he will consult again, he has already consulted with the membership and he mentioned this morning about the scale of the mandate he has from Labour members and supporters.  Is he is trying to intimidate MPs?

JOHN McDONNELL: No of course not, not at all.  You’ve got to get used to our new process of democracy within our party, everyone should have a say and that’s where he is making sure they can have a say.

DM: Can’t you have a representative democracy? Once the MPs are elected they take a decision on behalf of their constituents and they don’t normally have to …

JOHN MCDONNELL:  Please let me finish.  We are trying to get a new politics where people can have their say so when MPs come to their decisions they are informed of the views expressed by party members, their constituents and others and what Jeremy is doing is using all the new technological methods of social media, consultations, making sure people have their say and we can then take those into account.  From his email that went out on late Friday night we’ve had 70,000 and more responses already expressing their views about the situation on the bombing and I think also on the issue about the free vote so he’ll come to a decision on that basis and all those views will be taken into account.   

DM: Okay, so not intimidate but just describing that process to me as you have done Mr McDonnell, you talk about putting pressure on MPs …

JOHN McDONNELL: No, no, you’re not listening …

DM: Well of course you are because you consulting with the membership to put pressure on their MPs.

JOHN McDONNELL: No, you’re not listening.  You are mistaking dialogue and consultation for the old politics of lobbying and pressure, that isn’t what we’re about anymore.  We are allowing people to express their views and what that means is that MPs really are well informed.

DM: But within that would you like some MPs to change their minds, some MPs who perhaps haven’t consulted as widely as they have done with their constituents and the members of their local parties, who are thinking of voting along with Mr Cameron’s recommendation, would you like them to change their minds?

JOHN MCDONNELL:  Well it’s interesting, the bulk of the people I’ve spoken to are actually keeping their minds open and I read this morning that David Davis, the Conservative MP, the former Conservative Home Secretary, I read his article which I thought was extremely considered.  Now he has come down against bombing by the looks of it but he is putting some really clear questions that I think still need to be addressed in the debate so I think on a cross party basis – I want a consensus in the House of Commons and if we can lift this above party politics, allow MPs to come to a view on the basis of their conscience, I think we get so much better decisions in that way.  

DM: But you haven’t changed your views.  If we look back, we remember your conference when you set, as you said then, some pretty stringent conditions to apply if there were to be any British military action in Syria.  Have they all been met?  The key one is authorisation from the United Nations, humanitarian assistance for refugees, there is a lot of that going on, bombing IS targets only – that’s what we hear from the Prime Minister and international diplomatic talks which are ongoing at the moment.  

JOHN MCDONNELL:  Well let me just quote David Davis from his article.  What he is saying is that he is not convinced there is either a military plan or a long term political solution that has been planned by the Prime Minister as well and I agree with that, I think the Prime Minister has actually come forward with proposals which I think many people are sceptical about and actually might worsen the situation.  So I am opposed to the bombing and I know the argument has been brought forward that this will be very clinical, very precise, etc. but I’m concerned that any collateral damage will be used by ISIS as a recruitment tool to be frank and I think it will possibly endanger us even more.  I would like us to do two things, concentrate on our own security at home and then abroad what we need to do is be the broker of a political solution in the region.  I think the regional powers will have to solve this, they have got to step up to the plate and I think we’ve got to put that on the agenda at the Vienna talks and that does mean exactly as we did in Iraq actually, when the Sunni tribes turned on Al-Qaeda and defeated them, that was the most effective way of actually resolving the situation.   

DM: Okay and in terms of what’s going on in parliament, there are those that are now saying that you and Jeremy Corbyn are trying to muddy the waters.  We know the Prime Minister’s position on a vote, he wants to know he is going to win it and he wants to know the position of your party and he wants to know he has got enough of his own MPs as you described who will vote with him.  Are you trying to put enough doubt in the Prime Minister’s mind here that he actually won’t hold a vote at all?

JOHN MCDONNELL:  No, I think the Prime Minister needs to think very, very carefully about all these issues that have been raised not just by Labour MPs but by Conservative MPs as well.  It’s not about sewing doubt, it is about honestly expressing one’s judgement.  I have been in parliament as I say for 18 years, I’ve sat there when decisions have been made to send our young men and women to war and some of them have come back unfortunately maimed and killed.  I think it is the most serious decision a Member of Parliament can make and I think the Prime Minister needs to take into account the real problems that a number of MPs have got with this promotion of a bombing campaign which many of us think will be counter-productive.

DM: And do you think it could be counter-productive in the sense that it could lead to terror attacks on the streets of Britain?

JOHN McDONNELL: We are already under threat, let’s be clear about that and that’s why I support the government’s investment in increased security and I’m glad we changed the Chancellor’s mind with regard to cutting the police but the reality is that we’re not fighting a conventional war here, this isn’t like the Second World War where you fight on a battlefield, you defeat the enemy, they sign a peace treaty and go away.  We are fighting, yes, a bit of a traditional campaign on a battlefield but I think also we are fighting a terrorist campaign and terrorism works by the actual perpetrators convincing others they are the victims and recruiting.

DM: The question is about making yourself a target as your colleague Ken Livingstone said on Thursday when it came to the awful barbarity of 7/7 and all the people that died in London on that day, that he saw that as a direct consequence of Britain’s involvement in the invasion of Iraq, do you think similar things could flow from intervention in Syria?

JOHN McDONNELL: The lessons we’ve got to learn is whatever action we take, we mustn’t allow the action to be used by ISIS as a recruitment tool to radicalise people within our own community and of course Europe so we have to be really careful in what we do.

DM: But do you think Ken Livingstone is right?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I think there is a grain of truth in the fact that if we do anything that enables ISIS to have this narrative that this is a crusader invasion or attack of Christians against Muslims, it is nothing of the sort.  What we are tackling here is a murderous group but we’ve got to be sophisticated in the way that we do that and nothing we do should be allowed to be used by them to recruit to their terrorist…

DM: All right, not a causal link but it could add to that narrative.

JOHN McDONNELL: My worry is that they will use it in that way and I think what we have to do is be much more sophisticated now, learn the lessons of Iraq certainly and in that way we can, I think we can prevent them radicalising our youth and using this as a tool to recruit.

DM: There is another way forward as well and you’ve talked about the diplomacy and we know about your discussions and contacts with the IRA and Sinn Fein over the years and ultimately it was talks that led to that conflict at least being stopped and progress being made there, do you think we may come to a situation where elements of Islamic State could hold discussions with us?

JOHN McDONNELL: I can’t see it because, I can’t see it with this group because they seem to have, they are called a death cult and they seem to be so ideologically opposed to everything that we stand for, I can’t see those negotiations taking place with a group like this, I don't think that’s possible but as in Iraq what happened was that the Sunni tribes, clans, turned on Al Qaeda.  We’ve got to work on those people who are not fighting against them on the ground at the moment and maybe giving them tacit support.  Can I say also, a point that Jeremy Corbyn raises time and time again in the House of Commons is absolutely key as well, we’ve got to stop the supply of weapons and also stop them selling oil to surrounding powers basically.

DM: Well one way of doing that is by bombing the tankers and the oil installations.  

JOHN McDONNELL: Well quite the reverse actually, I think the bombing then causes collateral damage, then they use that to recruit in the wider Arab region.

DM: There’s a simple question here about Socialist solidarity isn’t there? President Hollande is calling for our help.

JOHN McDONNELL: I thought Mark Rylance answered that, the actor was asked that in an interview and I thought it was quite a clever response where he said if your friend is in a fight and he calls upon you to get in that fight, sometimes it is best to say actually there’s a better way of resolving this so I’m not sure whether a kneejerk response in terms of bombing is the right way forward.  I think what we should be doing is using our skills that we’ve demonstrated in Northern Ireland to be honest, about how you arrive at a peaceful situation.  

DM: Well you mentioned Mark Rylance speaking at the rally yesterday, he also talked about talking to Islamic State.  

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I don't think that’s feasible with this group but I actually do think if we bring the regional powers together within their area we can get them to step up to the plate.  A lot of the Sunni regimes now have just backed off because we’re there, the more we intervene the less they perform their responsibilities.

DM: Okay I want to ask you, I’ve got to ask you about the autumn statement, we have got that clip again when you must have thought it was a terrible good wheeze to wave the Little Red Book around at the Chancellor, let’s have a look at that moment and see what you think of it now.  [Clip]  Have you seen that back since Wednesday?

JOHN McDONNELL: Oh plenty of times, don’t worry!

DM: What was going through your mind?  You accept it backfired?

JOHN McDONNELL: No, I don't think it did.  It backfired onto the media but I don't think it backfired on the general public, it is interesting the amount of emails I’ve been having, people stopping me in the street and saying actually you made a good point.  The point I was trying to get across – which we wouldn’t be talking about if I hadn’t done that – is I am really worried about the asset sales.  The Office of Budget Responsibility has said that the government can only bring down its debt as a result of these asset sales that are going on and I’m worried.  For example they brought forward £5 billion worth of asset sales – air traffic control is now being sold, I’m worried about how much of our assets are being sold off.  It is no longer the family silver, this is the furniture and it is being sold off to foreign states and I find that really worrying both in terms of particularly strategic resources like the air traffic control but also it’s affecting our balance of payments now.  We have sold off so much that income is being sucked out of our economy.

DM: But do you not think waving a Communist manifesto like that around, a Socialist yourself, rather took that point away?

JOHN McDONNELL: Oh no, no.  Usually the Shadow Chancellor’s speech sinks beneath the waves within about half an hour of him or her making it.  You would not be talking about it if I hadn’t done that and should I say something else as well, I find it quite ironic as well that actually George Osborne is going around China selling off our assets and he is dealing with a regime that is actually abusing human rights at the same time. I have been campaigning against the invasion of Tibet and the oppression of Tibetan people by China, they don’t seem to be raising any human rights issues so this has allowed me to do two things – expose the asset sales that are going on, expose the implications of us selling our assets abroad to foreign powers and in addition to that start raising human rights issues in China too.

DM: Do you ever feel that you and Jeremy Corbyn are reaching the end of the road?  Is all this getting to you, do you think you will ever be Chancellor of the Exchequer?

JOHN McDONNELL: No, not at all … yes.  I think what we are doing here is opening up politics and actually as a result of that we are becoming stronger because we are engaging with more and more people.  I don’t want to be too critical but the media are almost in a separate bubble and you are getting to a situation now where people are turning off from reading papers and I have to say sometimes watching TV as well, because it doesn’t reflect their lives. What we’re doing is reconnecting people with the political system.

DM: And what about the Oldham by-election?  Do you think the wheels might come off the bus there and that might have implications for your continued tenure?

JOHN McDONNELL: I was there yesterday canvassing in the pouring rain and the response on the doorstep was pretty good.  We’ve got a fantastic candidate in Jim McMahon, local boy, really knows his constituency, people respect him a lot.  It depends on the weather on the day, it’s in December and by-elections are notorious for low turnout but …

DM:  But whatever the result, no resignations?

JOHN McDONNELL: Oh no, not at all, no.  We go on, I think we’re going from strength to strength.

DM: Well Shadow Chancellor, good to see you, thank you very much indeed, John McDonnell there and it should be said about the Oldham by-election, there’s a full list of candidates on our website.