Murnaghan Interview with John McDonnell, Shadow Chancellor, 26.06.16
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS
DERMOT MURNAGHAN: I am joined now by the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, a very good morning to you. It all seems to be falling apart, isn’t the game up for Jeremy?
JOHN MCDONNELL: No, no, Jeremy is not going anywhere. The sovereign body of our party are our members and Jeremy was elected with one of the biggest mandates any political leader has ever had from their own party only nine months ago so he is not going anywhere.
DM: But the edifice is crumbling, I am just hearing in my ear that Gloria de Piero has gone, there are more to come, we mentioned there’s seven, it could be the whole lot of them. Well not you but it is crumbling.
JOHN MCDONNELL: It’s a shame, it’s a shame and I’m disappointed. I’ll tell you why I’m disappointed, we’ve got a responsibility at the moment, the country is in a pretty perilous state after the referendum, we’ve got to negotiate a deal with Europe, now is the time to recognise our responsibilities to the country, not get into party squabbles about this.
DM: It’s a shame? Your party is falling apart.
JOHN MCDONNELL: No it isn’t, the rank and file of the Labour party I think will overwhelmingly support Jeremy Corbyn. Those ones who resign from the Shadow Cabinet will be replaced. It is disappointing, I’m really sad they have but we’ll move on.
DM: You sound like Earl Haig, all those people going over the top and getting mown down, there are plenty more, your Shadow Cabinet is falling apart – as I say present company excepted – several senior figures are resigning or have been sacked and you’re just saying well there’s plenty more to replace them.
JOHN MCDONNELL: No, no … a number of people, a number of people have stood down. The people who are the real decision makers in our party about who is the leader or not are our members, they made that decision nine months ago. Now if some members of the parliamentary Labour party want another leadership contest, well that’s up to them and we can go ahead with that but what I am saying is that it’s a real pity because now’s the time when we have got a government in disarray, we’ve got huge issues to face as a result of what’s happened after the referendum, to renegotiate the best deal with can to protect our country. I think it’s a real shame that people aren’t stepping up to their responsibilities, people out there aren’t interested in party squabbles, they want to see a decent opposition and a decent government.
DM: Okay so are you saying then that even if the MPs, the Labour MPs get Jeremy Corbyn to stand down, there will of course be another leadership contest and you want to see Jeremy Corbyn stand?
JOHN MCDONNELL: I will chair his campaign committee like I did last year and I think the rank and file of the Labour party membership will re-elect him but if there is a leadership election, let’s go for it and Jeremy will stand and I think he will be re-elected. However I think it’s a real shame, I am really disappointed, not at this point in time when the country needs us so much.
DM: So you are saying to the MPs, you are out of touch with the membership?
JOHN MCDONNELL: I think what I’m saying to them is think very, very carefully about the situation our country faces at the moment. We have a bigger responsibility to the country than we do to internal party squabbles. Also go back to your constituencies and consult your members as well, let’s take the heat out of this and everyone calm down. I think lots of people are tired, they may not have slept since Thursday, I think they should all have a good night’s sleep and all calm down.
DM: Would you be a candidate if Mr Corbyn decides, if he doesn’t get on the ballot paper or decides he doesn’t want to stand, would you stand and represent those values?
JOHN MCDONNELL: No, no, Jeremy is not going anywhere, he’ll be the candidate if there is a leadership election, I’ll chair his campaign committee and I am not standing no matter what happens.
DM: He’d be a funny position wouldn’t he with so many of his MPs who have said explicitly now, we know what they have been saying behind the scenes for many, many months now, but to put it on the record that we do not support you, we don’t want you as leader?
JOHN MCDONNELL: I think most of those MPs respect the views of their party members back in their constituencies and overall, I think they do and I think if they’ve got anxieties at the moment I’m just saying calm down, consult your members and let’s get on with the job of being a good opposition but protecting the interests of our community and our country.
DM: This seems to flow from the criticism of Mr Corbyn’s campaigning and indeed how firmly he really did want the UK to remain within the European Union, what do you think of the first he made of it?
JOHN MCDONNELL: I think he was in exactly the right position because what he argued for – and Hilary Benn led our campaign in the Shadow Cabinet and what Jeremy was saying was …
DM: So it is Hilary Benn’s fault?
JOHN MCDONNELL: No, I’m not blaming anybody, this isn’t what this is about. What Jeremy was saying was we’ve got to recognise that people had criticisms of the European Union, that’s why we needed to campaign to remain and reform and I think he took the right position. We lost it marginally. His job, he was told very explicitly, was to deliver Labour voters and deliver young people, they are the two target groups and …
DM: But the turnout was low …
JOHN MCDONNELL: Wait for it, seven out of ten Labour voters voted for remain, four to one the young people voted to remain, he did his job. We couldn’t win the argument unfortunately, the tragedy of it is now that all those promises that people were given from the Brexit side are now being unpicked and reneged upon. I think that’s a real tragedy but we have to deal with that now and that’s why I say the responsibility on our shoulders is now to the country and not to party squabbles.
DM: Do you think there is an opportunity now to really develop socialism in an independent United Kingdom now we are about to leave the European Union?
JOHN MCDONNELL: I think we’ve got to develop a policy programme, negotiate it with the rest of Europe. We have good relationships with socialist and social democratic parties and progressive movements across Europe, I think we can get a good deal but I think the best deal will come from the left, one based on cooperation, one based on anti-austerity and with long term investment particularly in those communities that voted for Brexit because they felt left behind.
DM: And how do you address those who felt left behind and didn’t vote with the view of the leadership? There is one core message here, they said we have major concerns about immigration and Jeremy Corbyn and you have been telling them all along that immigration is actually good for you, you’ve got it wrong. They are never going to swallow that are they?
JOHN MCDONNELL: I think we really have to listen to people and Jeremy did a major speech yesterday on immigration so we’ve got to go out there. Freedom of movement will go now because we’re no longer part of the European Union when that negotiation is done …
DM: Are you in favour of that?
JOHN MCDONNELL: No, I think what we’ve got to do is negotiate and consult with people on the fairest system where we get the benefits but we don’t get the dis-benefits and I think that is going to be a tough negotiation to have. The issues that came up in the campaign was that migrant labour and trying to cut wages, pressure on public services and the loss of control so those three issues we’ve now got to address.
DM: And how are you going to address them? Are you going to say if we do get a deal with the European Union that does have to involve freedom of movement we can’t have that deal?
JOHN MCDONNELL: Well I don't think freedom of movement is on the table anymore to be honest. The issue now is tackling the undercutting of wages and that’s about employment rights in particular and that’s where the trade union organisation will have a say; pressure on public services, and that means if there is pressure on public services partly as a result of government austerity, some parts because of migration, then we invest in those public services. In addition to that, that issue about how you create a non-discriminatory system is key and we’ve got to listen to people on that.
DM: Just back to your thinking there that there are plenty of Labour MPs, there is a finite amount and when we look at the Shadow Cabinet that was originally formed by Jeremy Corbyn, there were an awful lot of people, people with a lot of experience who didn’t want to serve under Jeremy, some did, so this current crop then were all thought to be at least tolerant of Jeremy Corbyn’s view, they have gone or are about to go many of them, you are saying there is another lot?
JOHN MCDONNELL: There will be other MPs who are willing to serve because they have responsibility to the party, they respect the views of the party members.
DM: You’ll be stopping people in the street very soon to serve in the shadow cabinet.
JOHN MCDONNELL: No, look, let’s be serious about this. I’m really sorry people have resigned, it’s a real shame, I am so disappointed but others will accept their responsibility not just to their party but more importantly, to the country. We have the responsibility on our shoulders to protect our community now.
DM: I just want to put this to you, Mr McDonnell, as I mentioned Gloria de Piero, the Shadow Minister for Young People and Voter Registration has resigned and this is something she has had to say: “I’ve always enjoyed a warm personal relationship with you and I want to thank you for the opportunity to serve in your Shadow Cabinet. I accepted the invitation because I thought it was right to support you in your attempts to achieve the Labour victory so badly needs. I don’t believe you can deliver that victory at a general election which may take place in a matter of months. I have been contacted by many of my members this weekend and it is clear that a good number of them share that view and have lost faith in your leadership.” And that’s a message you are going to hear many more times it seems today from these formerly loyal members of the Shadow Cabinet. You sat beside her and Heidi Alexander and others and there is a looming general election it seems, do you think there should be a general election, do you think in Jeremy Corbyn you’ve got the next Prime Minister?
JOHN MCDONNELL: Bring it on, bring the general election on as soon as you like, as soon as the Tories like. If it is going to be November or next May, bring it on. Everyone has given Jeremy various electoral tests, let’s go through them: Oldham by-election, they said he wouldn’t win that, he won it hands down; parliamentary by-elections, he’s increased the majority on every occasion; local government elections, we’ve won every mayoral election. We’ve matched, matched Ed Miliband at his very highest in elections, every electoral test he’s won.
DM: Excuse me, he didn’t win the referendum, he was on the remain side.
JOHN MCDONNELL: That wasn’t a party political campaign, it was one single issue, it wasn’t a judgement on the Labour party, it was a judgement of people on that particular issue. Every other electoral test he has succeeded.
DM: So Jeremy Corbyn can win back all those people who defied his commands to vote for him, he can win all them back, all the people who didn’t vote for Ed Miliband in the general election and all the Scots voters that didn’t vote for either, he can win them back?
JOHN MCDONNELL: Look at his trajectory, in every election so far we’ve won. In every electoral test we’ve won and we’ve increased our majorities, I think we’re on par to win a general election but it requires two things: hard work to campaign and a united party. This unfortunately sets us back so that’s why I’m saying to Labour MPs, look, hold together. We’ve got a tradition in our party called solidarity, we need solidarity now.
DM: Hold together, we’re on the path to victory.
JOHN MCDONNELL: I think if we work hard enough and we hold together in solidarity, we can mobilise and win a general election. Why? Because the Tories are in disarray, they have brought us out of Europe now as a result of the splits within their own party, a referendum that wasn’t needed anyway and I think as you’ve seen today in all the newspapers the Tories are ripping themselves apart. This is not a time for the Labour party to do that, party squabbles should be put to one side, the interest of the country need to come first.
DM: Shadow Chancellor, good to see you, thank you very much indeed.
