Murnaghan Interview with Pat McFadden, Labour, Shadow EU Minister, 24.05.15

Sunday 24 May 2015


ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO MURNAGHAN, SKY NEWS

DERMOT MURNAGHAN: So a dramatic U-turn from Labour today, the party is officially dropping its opposition to an in/out referendum on Britain’s EU membership.  Well Pat McFadden is Labour’s Shadow Europe Minister and he joins me now and a very good morning to you Mr McFadden.  So was it a mistake then not to offer this referendum before the general election?

PAT McFADDEN: Well I think we have got to recognise the result of the election, we’ve got a majority Conservative government, it was a key part of their election campaign, it was in their manifesto and it is going to be the top item in the Queen’s Speech and we had a choice to make after the election.  We could have spent the period between now and the referendum continuing to argue about whether or not it should take place or focus on what is now the bigger issue which is whether or not Britain stays a member of the European Union and we decided to …

DM: The thing is, this is now the Labour party’s official policy saying we now support a referendum which is very different, as I said there, from the policy you went into the general election with and it comes down to this issue, and Lisa Markwell from the Independent on Sunday, the editor of the Independent on Sunday, was making this point – what are your core beliefs?  Because Labour believe there should be a referendum or there shouldn’t be one or is this just because there is going to be one so you might as well join in?

PAT McFADDEN: We recognise that it is going to happen and we’ve got a choice to make now.  Do we…

DM: But you’d rather there wasn’t one?

PAT McFADDEN: Well we fought the election saying this posed big risks to the UK if we came out of the European Union and it does pose a big risk to the UK if we come out of the European Union but …

DM: So you would rather there wasn’t one?

PAT McFADDEN: But there is going to be a referendum so we had a choice to make as on opposition, do we continue to argue whether or not there should be a referendum in the face of legislation which is going to go through the House of Commons or do we concentrate here on the key issue for the future of the UK, for our place in the world in terms of trade and jobs and investment and that’s what we’re going to do, so the legislation will go through …

DM: But it’s a bit confusing though because Mr Cameron is still ill-defined exactly what he is going to be asking for but he is going in there and we can see from the get-go so to speak he has been out there making those contacts with European leaders, with EC leaders.  What does Labour want?  What does Labour want in terms of renegotiation or doesn’t it want one at all?

PAT McFADDEN: Well we’ve a few things in terms of the changes we want to see.  We want to see a deepening of the single market, especially when it comes to services where this country is strong, we want to see …

DM: That is not exactly something that the rest of Europe doesn’t want is it?

PAT McFADDEN: Well they say they want but it’s not happened so far and the single market project is still very incomplete.  We’ve said we want to see some changes in terms of benefits and migration and we’ve also said that we want to make sure that the UK as a country outside the euro is not going to be treated in any way as a second class citizen in the future so there are a number of changes.  

DM: Say those things don’t transpire, say you don’t get those, does Labour recommend a no vote or is it yes come what may?

PAT McFADDEN: I can’t see circumstances where we would recommend a no vote because the other side of the ledger is this is our main export market for over 40% of our exports, it’s the source of half the inward investment that comes into the UK.  It’s also very important now for our peace and security when we see what’s happening in terms of Russia and the Ukraine and so on, so it’s possible to argue for reform and change in an organisation without also having to …

DM: Well you know more about negotiations than I do but that would be a fairly weak hand to take in in to any negotiations, we want these things but if we don’t get them we’ll vote yes anyway.

PAT McFADDEN: I don’t think that the European Union necessarily always works best by always threatening to leave.  We’ve achieved change in the past by working with others, the Prime Minister is going to have to get some agreement from others to some of the changes that he wants so let’s see what he comes up with but he too has some issues here because in terms of the programme that he’s set out so far there is nothing that he could renegotiate that would satisfy a good number of his backbenchers who want to come out come what may.  So there is a big challenge for him in these negotiations to try to keep this Conservative party which has just won the election together because there are, I don't know how many but there are a significant number of back benchers who will want to come out come what may in these …

DM: But you didn’t really answer that question about the general election campaign.  There is a lot of analysis and I have already talked about what went wrong with Labour’s campaign and we talked particularly about the inroads that UKIP made into your vote, is this a direct response to that?  It is isn’t it, that you feel that if you had offered an EU referendum and Nigel Farage said he was very surprised that Labour didn’t offer one before the general election and he saw that as your biggest error.  Is that now accepted within Labour?

PAT McFADDEN: No, I don't think that’s the case.  You don’t win or lose an election for just one reason, I wouldn’t put our stance on this down as being a definitive part of our election result and I don't think the response to UKIP and what they are preaching is to try and mimic them, ape them or follow them because I think a future for the UK by pulling out of the European Union would be tremendously damaging to jobs, to trade, to investment and to our place in the world.  So what we’re going to do in the time between now and the referendum is to make that case as strongly as possible.  You will not see Labour responding to UKIP by some kind of pale imitation of it because we have a very different view of Britain’s place in the world.

DM: And then if Mr Cameron defines himself as having got enough out of those negotiations, you end up your new leader – whoever he or she may be – ends up campaigning with Mr Cameron for a yes.

PAT McFADDEN: Well the campaign is further down the line but I would predict that Mr Cameron will try and present whatever he negotiates as being a victory because I don’t think he wants to come out of the European Union so he is going to come back, he’s going to say look at the emperor’s new clothes here, I’m wonderfully dressed with this new negotiation and now we should vote to stay in and his problem then will be the inevitable division in the Tory party at that time.  But the Labour party won’t play politics with Britain’s place in the world, we think it’s really important for us to remain in the European Union for some of the reasons I’ve set out.

DM: Pat McFadden, thank you very much indeed, very good to see you, Pat McFadden there.  

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