Sophy Ridge on Sunday 5.03.17 Interview with Hilary Benn, Labour MP, Chair Brexit Select Committee

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS

SOPHY RIDGE: Should the government guarantee the rights of over three million EU citizens living in the UK?  Well this week the Lords said yes and they’ve been joined this morning by the Brexit Committee, certainly no collection of Remainers with leading Brexiteer Michael Gove on board.  Well I’ve joined now by the Chairman of that Committee, the Labour MP Hilary Benn, thank you for being with us this morning.  

HILARY BENN: Good morning Sophy.  

SR: Well your committee has backed very strongly this idea that the government should guarantee the rights of EU citizens already living in the UK, how damaging do you think that the government’s stance is at the moment?

HILARY BENN: Well we took evidence from representatives of the three million and they, and also the 1.2 million Brits who are living and working in other European countries, who have felt very unsure about what the future holds for them since the referendum result last June and this is about people’s lives, their families, their futures, what their children are going to go on and do and we are unanimously recommending as a committee that the government should deal with the bit it has control over, which is the position of the three million European citizens who are here and take a unilateral decision now to say it’s okay, you can stay.  

SR: So it was unanimous then?  You have got these leading Leave supporters, Michael Gove, John Whittingdale, they are all on board as well?  

HILARY BENN: It was a unanimously agreed report by the Select Committee and I think it has great weight precisely because that is the case and we also think that it will assist in securing the position of the 1.2 million Brits abroad because when we took …

SR: Because that’s a crucial point though isn’t it?  There will be lots of people listening to this thinking the government don’t want to guarantee the rights of EU citizens until they get guarantees for Brits living abroad.  You are effectively, you could say, abandoning those people to be used as hostages in the negotiations with other EU countries.

HILARY BENN: We are absolutely not doing that at all.  First of all, when we took evidence from representatives from British citizens living abroad, you might have expected, Sophy, they would have come to us and said yes, please don’t guarantee the rights of the EU citizens until you’ve sorted us out.  They didn’t say that, they said the government should take this step in relation to the three million who are here because they thought it will create the right climate.  I think it’s about leading by example and in the end, does anyone seriously imagine we are going to end up in a situation where the 27 member states say to the 1.2 million Brits off you go anymore than we would say to doctors, nurses, university lecturers, people serving in hotels and restaurants, people working in manufacturing, picking and processing vegetables – jobs that EU citizens do currently in the UK – that we’re going to say to them, right you can go?

SR: You say that though but the Chancellor Philip Hammond has said this morning that actually there are EU countries who are blocking the idea of a reciprocal deal.

HILARY BENN: David Davis said previously that most of the other member states were signed up to this …

SR: Most, not all.

HILARY BENN: I think he said there were a couple that weren’t but look, even if there were to be a problem with the 27, is anyone seriously suggesting that we would turn round and say to the EU citizens who are here, living, working, paying tax, living in our communities, contributing, off you go?  They said to us nobody wants to be used as a bargaining chip, they don’t want to be used as a bargaining chip, this is about people and their lives and I think if we lead by example I’m sure we’ll end up in the end with a deal where everybody gets to stay and that great uncertainty which is felt by those citizens, the Brits abroad and EU citizens here, will then be put on one side because we have got loads of other things to negotiate about with the 27 member states as we leave.

SR: Your report is also talking about the need to skill up British nationals in case EU citizens do start to leave, you must welcome then the idea that the government is launching these new T Levels, technical qualifications, to rival A levels?   

HILARY BENN: We should always be investing more in training and skills and the truth is that some employers in Britain have decided to take advantage of training that has taken place in other countries and our economic future as a nation depends on us having the right skills because in a world of globalisation and change, what are Britain’s great strengths as a nation – our language increasingly becoming a global language, our creativity, our skill, our education, all of those things and investing in that so that every young person in this country has a chance to bring out the talent that’s within them and come and take a job and contribute to our economic growth and development so we’re ready to take advantage of technological change that will continue to come and Britain can remain a strong economy, because that’s how the money is raised to pay for health and education and all the other things which we greatly value.

SR: Let’s talk about Brexit a bit more generally.  The Chancellor has said that he is going to put £60 billion aside to insulate against any of the difficult economic wins ahead.  That to me seems like a bit of an indication that things could get a bit rocky and yet Labour doesn’t seem to be providing any meaningful opposition.  The Brexit Bill sailed through the House of Commons unamended, that was your big chance to change the shape of Brexit and you just rolled over.

HILARY BENN: I don’t agree with that at all.  There are two separate things here, the first is do you respect the result of the referendum?  I was a passionate Remain campaigner, Labour campaigned vigorously for Remain but we lost and if you say you respect the outcome of the referendum and then don’t give effect to that because the only way to do that is to press the Article 50 button, then what does it mean?  I’d say to you Sophy, look, there is a bit of a crisis of confidence in politics in Britain, across Europe, across many parts of the world, imagine what it would be like if parliament were to turn round to the 52% who voted to leave and said well actually we know better than you, we’re staying?  I mean that I think just could not happen.  However, all the referendum decided was we’re leaving, what it did not decide is the terms on which we leave or the new relationship we’re going to have with Europe and there we’ve been very clear.  The absolute priority is to ensure that we continue to have tariff and barrier free trade.  Now I think the government is taking a risk, speaking personally, because it says we’d like to sign trade deals with other countries but to keep tariff and barrier free trade.  Now if Europe agrees to that, okay but Europe may say in the negotiations I’m afraid that sounds like having your cake and eating it and if that is the case, if we want to ensure that business can continue to export and import without tariffs but crucially, without delay, bureaucracy, paperwork and so on, we need to have tariff free trade and if we’re going to ensure that their remains a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic where there isn’t a return of customs posts – because when we were in Dublin recently as a Select Committee the message we got from the Irish politicians we met there was under no circumstances can that happen.

SR: So all the more need for a strong opposition.  I just want to have a look at what you said last year when you sacked from the Shadow Cabinet, about the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, you said that there can be no confidence that Labour can win the next election with Jeremy as leader.  Since then you have lost Copeland, your majority has been cut in Stoke, do you still feel that with Jeremy Corbyn as leader Labour has no chance of winning the next election?

HILARY BENN: Well I don’t resile from what I said in the summer but there was then followed, as you know, by another leadership election and Labour party members decided to re-elect Jeremy Corbyn …

SR: But you still think that’s true?

HILARY BENN: But I respect the outcome of that.  Our job is to work together, we are clearly facing a very challenging situation as the Labour party, you look at our position in the opinion polls and how in the end are we going to change that?  By being united but crucially arguing for the right things in relation to Brexit but also addressing the fundamental questions, Sophy, that face our society – what is the Labour party for?  We have values and beliefs that are unchanging, that we apply them to a world that is changing.  What are we going to do about the care of our elderly?  This is what we need to be talking about, not about the internal workings of the party and who’s doing what because we have a job to work together.

SR: Of course but to change those things you need to be close to power or in power.  Now you are somebody who is the son of Tony Benn, you joined the Labour party when you were 16 years old, it’s in your blood, you are clearly passionate about the party – with the Labour party in crisis surely now is the time to be in the trenches fighting for the  party.  If things don’t get better would you step up, would you run as leader?

HILARY BENN: Well I’m not standing to be leader of the Labour party and there isn’t a vacancy because Jeremy is the leader and has been re-elected by the party members but we campaign and fight every single day for the interests of the Labour party, that’s why I joined all those years ago, that’s why there are so many members of the Labour party but how are we going to have the best chance of persuading the British people to put their trust and confidence in us once again?  It is to talk about the concerns that the British people have, how we are going to care for our elderly, how do we build the homes for the next generation, how do we ensure that the next wave of technological change doesn’t result in more insecurity at work, more people on zero hours contracts, more young people who start work and think I don’t have any prospect at the moment of saving for my pension?  Now those are the big challenges that our society faces and Labour has historically in the past been able to find answers to that and when we turn our attention to that rather than debating amongst ourselves then I think we’ll have a better chance of persuading the British people to put in a Labour government once again.  

SR: Okay, Hillary Benn, thank you.