Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Ruth Davidson, Scottish Conservative Leader, 19.03.17
ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY, SKY NEWS
SOPHY RIDGE: Not too long ago you might have been laughed out of town for suggesting that a Conservative leader could hold the popular appeal in Scotland to keep the Union together but not anymore. Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson has got better ratings than any politician in the country and amongst some is backed to be the face of the Unionist campaign. Well I sat down with her and started by asking if it’s right for Theresa May to block plans for a 2018 referendum.
RUTH DAVIDSON: You can’t ask the people of Scotland to be dragged back to another divisive referendum that they don’t want when you are not able to say what the two options are. Nicola Sturgeon says she wants to take Scotland back to the division of another independence referendum in the next 18 months but we won’t know what Brexit looks like and we won’t know what independence looks like. We are also divided enough as a country, we are not in the place we were three years ago where there was overwhelming public and political consent for this. We’re divided right now, the majority of people in Scotland don’t want this and this is Nicola Sturgeon’s obsession playing out once again.
SR: At the same time though it’s not a great look, is it, for the Conservatives to be on the side of not giving Scottish people the say in their future? It’s a bit like if it’s the EU who had just blocked the UK from holding a referendum.
RUTH DAVIDSON: But this isn’t just about the Conservatives. The Labour party in Scotland has said that people in Scotland should be able to see what they are voting for as well, the Lib Dems have said the same. This is about a general sense of fairness. Even taking away that Nicola Sturgeon herself promised the people of Scotland that when they answered this very question just three years ago that would last for a whole generation, this is about being on the side of the people of Scotland. The majority of the people of Scotland don’t want to go back to the divisions of another referendum and I think the Prime Minister is absolutely right to say not now.
SR: There is going to be some change in circumstances isn’t there with the UK leaving the EU. You were a passionate remainer, you must admit this as well, it is going to hit the public finances, it could mean years of austerity for the people of Scotland. Isn’t it right that they get a choice on whether that’s something they sign up to?
RUTH DAVIDSON: Thousands, tens of thousands of people across Scotland voted remain, to stay part of the European Union. I’m furious that Nicola Sturgeon seems to think that my remain vote is a green light to independence, it’s not and that’s why there are so many people in Scotland that are so angry that she’s worked incredibly hard, desperately hard in fact, to leverage everything that she can since June of last year to this point this week, to say that Brexit is a means to hold another independence referendum, to leverage Brexit to make it happen. I think she has made a real mistake too, she’s admitted that the Scottish government has said, it’s said in the paper that they gave to the UK government, that they accept that Scotland is leaving the European Union, is leaving the European Union as part of the UK or if it were independent. What she is also saying is that she has not even confirmed that she wants to go back in as a full member of the European Union immediately. So she is saying that leaving the European Union, which would happen in either event, is the reason for holding a vote on independence but she is not even saying that Europe is the reason she would go back in as a full member.
SR: It could be argued though that Scotland could benefit from a halfway house like Norway?
RUTH DAVIDSON: The problem is you have already got the Foreign Minister of Iceland saying that EFTA membership, this halfway house that you’re talking about, is not on the cards either. You’ve got the Foreign Minister of Spain saying that we wouldn’t get back into Europe, you’ve got the First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon saying she might not even pursue that as her first course of option, as her immediate option and you’ve got the head of – which is her other option, to join EFTA – you’ve got the Foreign Minister of Iceland saying that’s not on the cards either. So you’ve got this ridiculous, I think deceitful, proposition from Nicola Sturgeon where she is saying to the people of Scotland we must drag you back to a police that you don’t want to go, to answer a question that you’ve already answered and I just didn’t like that answer, on the grounds of leaving Europe which we’re going to do anyway and we might not even go back in.
SR: It’s clear you are very comfortable attacking Nicola Sturgeon, she angers you I can tell but do you think that Theresa May also needs to take some responsibility for this as well? She’s ruled out the idea of the single market straight away, doesn’t she need to take some responsibility too for being in a situation when Nicola Sturgeon is able to call for this referendum?
RUTH DAVIDSON: You are suggesting that I’m angry, I am absolutely calm. This is a conversation that we’ve had in Scotland for many years, I wish that we weren’t still having it in Scotland but the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, has tried to drag us back there by putting this proposition on the table on Monday. I will always defend the decision, the democratic decision that the people of Scotland made to stay part of our United Kingdom and I will advocate membership of our Union because I believe in it head, heart, body and soul. In terms of what’s on the table, at the moment Scotland is leaving the European Union. It will leave as part of the UK, even Nicola Sturgeon has admitted that even if there were an independence referendum on her time frame, Scotland would still be leaving the EU. What she hasn’t confirmed is whether we would go back in or not. What Theresa May has said was that she wants to have the greatest amount of free trade for Scots businesses and UK businesses, within the single market, so the ability to trade with and operate in was her exact phrase, it was in her Lancaster House speech, it is one of the twelve key asks of the UK government in these Brexit negotiations and I support that. I want the freest trade with the European Union and with other partners around the world, for our businesses here in Scotland and across the UK.
SR: Is Theresa May treating Scotland a bit more like a subject than a partner in all this though? Because she hasn’t been keeping Nicola Sturgeon in the loop has she? She hasn’t taken her considerations about the single market on board or told her in advance that that’s what she was planning to do, she didn’t give her any prior warning about when Article 50 was likely to be triggered so she is effectively making all of these decisions hundreds of miles away from Scotland without a whisper of warning.
RUTH DAVIDSON: Okay, there are about 60 different things in there, let’s unpick them one by one. You say that Nicola Sturgeon hasn’t been given prior warning of Article 50 being moved, it’s not been moved yet. You say that …
SR: But it has been …
RUTH DAVIDSON: Excuse me, you asked me a question with lots of different things in it so let me address the points one by one. You are saying that Theresa May hasn’t addressed the issues that the Scottish government brought up within their own paper that they put to the UK government and yet several of these issues were embedded in the Lancaster House speech, in the 12 points that the UK government put forward. So for example the Sottish government, Nicola Sturgeon, specifically asked for workers’ rights in the UK to be protected. That’s one of the 12 key points that the Prime Minister put forward. Nicola Sturgeon specifically asked for a close co-operation on crime and security and intelligence matters, that was one of the 12 key points put forward by Theresa May. Nicola Sturgeon specifically asked for assurances for EU rights, that was an issue that is part of the 12 key points put forward by Theresa May. So to say, the SNP might like to talk about being ignored because it suits their agenda but that’s not to reflect the key considerations that have been adopted by the UK government.
SR: So you don’t think that Theresa May has done anything wrong then, all the blame is on Nicola Sturgeon? She has nothing to worry about, she’s played the whole thing perfectly?
RUTH DAVIDSON: Look, Theresa May is wanting to get the best deal for the whole of the UK including Scotland, as we leave the EU. Now I don’t doubt for a second that there are going to be some tough negotiations ahead, but there is only one person that wants these negotiations to fail and that wants to use even the idea of these negotiation for an ulterior purpose and motive and that’s to break up the United Kingdom, and that is Nicola Sturgeon. So in terms of who’s playing with a straight bat in this, I know whose side I’m on.
SR: Now you’ve got some pretty impressive approval ratings. If you look at a recent poll of Scottish voters, your approval ratings were better than Nicola Sturgeon, Kezia Dugdale, Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May. Are you the person who can save the Union?
RUTH DAVIDSON: Look, this is about what the people of Scotland want and the majority of people of Scotland, not only did they vote overwhelmingly, two million…
SR: You had a good campaign as well, that comes into it too.
RUTH DAVIDSON: I enjoyed the campaign but I don’t want to be dragged back to a campaign that divides our country when we were promised, all the voters of Scotland, if they paid attention, if they took it seriously, if they asked the questions, if they got the information, if they voted, that that decision would be respected. That’s what they were promised in 2014 and people in Scotland came out in record numbers, 85%, the highest proportion of people that have ever voted under universal suffrage for anything in the United Kingdom and less than three years later Nicola Sturgeon says I didn’t like your answer, I’m going to drag you back there again. I will campaign if I have to but what I’m saying is that we shouldn’t have to go back there when people don’t know what they’re being asked and when the people of Scotland don’t want it.
SR: You clearly don’t want to have another referendum campaign but if there is one, and it does seem inevitable even though the timing of course is under question, would you step up and lead it?
RUTH DAVIDSON: Well look, there are going to be plenty of people who lead right across the country, I’m sure I will be one of them. I will not be sitting holding the jackets at the back, I’ll be making sure that I’m putting my points down the front but this isn’t just about politicians, this is about the people of Scotland. Our whole country voted in 2014 and we spoke pretty loudly and pretty clearly that we wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom and Nicola Sturgeon unilaterally can’t take that away from us.
SR: So would you share a platform with Labour as part of this campaign?
RUTH DAVIDSON: I’ve always been able to share platforms with people right across this debate and others where there is common cause and I would absolutely done so again.
SR: And how about the messaging? If it was Project Fear last time, is it going to be Project Armageddon this time? What’s the plan?
RUTH DAVIDSON: Look, you have asked me to go down several routes of hypotheticals and I’m not prepared to do so. This week the First Minister of Scotland against the will of the majority of people in this country unilaterally decided that she wanted to drag us back to a place that she promised us we wouldn’t have to go. She put a specific set of proposals on the table to the UK government and I think the Prime Minister was absolutely right to say that this can’t happen within 18 months on the principle that the people of Scotland need to know what they are being asked to vote on and there needs to be popular and public and political consent for this that doesn’t exist.
SR: Scottish Conservative Leader, Ruth Davidson there, saying she won’t be holding jackets at the back in any campaign. I honestly don’t think there is much risk of that happening.