Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Damian Hinds Education Secretary

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Some of Theresa May’s closest allies are secretly preparing for a second referendum according to reports in today’s newspapers so let’s try and find out what’s really happening with the Education Secretary, Damian Hinds, thank you for being with us this morning. So Mr Hinds, is the government preparing for a second referendum.

DAMIAN HINDS: No, a second referendum would be divisive. We’ve had the people’s vote, we’ve had the referendum and now we’ve got to get on with implementing it. Any idea that having a second referendum now would break through an impasse I just think is wrong. It might postpone the impasse but then it would extend it. So what we need to do is get on with this, the Prime Minister has been in Brussels talking to the different European leaders to help secure those extra reassurances that colleagues understandably are looking for on the backstop, but then we have to get together again and we have to support a balanced deal which gives us a good Brexit for Britain.

SR: You talk there about Theresa May’s negotiation but let’s get real, it’s not exactly been going to plan has it? It doesn’t look as if she is going to be getting any of the kind of assurances she promised MPs before that vote of confidence so you must have a Plan B surely. Is a second referendum something that is being discussed at Cabinet?

DAMIAN HINDS: Well I think that what we saw in Brussels this week, Thursday, Friday, was an important start but it’s not the end of the process by any means and the PM will carry on those discussions over the Christmas period and then we’ll come back in January but you talk about a Plan B, there are about half a dozen different options going around and all of them have their own strong supporters but none of them has a majority in favour – whether you talk about Norway or Canada or second referendum or leaving without a deal or whatever it may be – and in the end we need a balanced deal, something that will appeal obviously to those who voted to leave but also appeal to those who voted remain. It’s got to be a deal for the whole country, a balanced deal and the essence of what the Prime Minister has negotiated does exactly that, it gets us out of free movement, it gets us out of the Common Agricultural Policy, it means we can strike trade deals and keep a close relationship, economically and in other ways, with Europe. Before the referendum, if you’d offered that deal, many leavers and Remainers would have bitten your hand off, it’s a good deal.

SR: A very impassioned defence there of the Prime Minister’s deal, the question is whether a second referendum has been discussed at Cabinet though, has it?

DAMIAN HINDS: No, our government policy couldn’t be clearer. We are here to act on the will of the British people …

SR: But has it been discussed at Cabinet?

DAMIAN HINDS: No, no, we are here to act on the will of the British people clearly expressed in the referendum but to do so in a way which takes a balanced approach but is good for people’s jobs and livelihoods which is exactly what the Prime Minister and the Cabinet are focused on.

SR: One way of breaking the deadlock, because it does feel as if we’re in a bit of a gridlock here with the EU not moving, the Conservatives backing the Prime Minister as leader but saying they are not going to change their minds at the vote. Is one way of breaking that deadlock putting a series of votes to the House of Commons to work out what there could be a majority for?

DAMIAN HINDS: Well what we need, and this sort of alludes to, is people need to get beyond everybody’s idea of what’s my first choice because there isn’t a majority for any of those first choices. Instead what you need is a balanced kind of approach and when you go from your first choice and start to think how would it work, something that would appeal more broadly and that balances all these different objectives and some of our different objectives, you know, there is a certain conflict between them and when you go through that process you get suddenly very close to the deal that the Prime Minister has put forward so we have to remember all that we have in common, what the essential objective is that we’re trying to do here to make sure we honour the result of the referendum but do so in a way which is economically beneficial. I think over the Christmas period, that’s a time when we do think about all that we have in common, we think about our togetherness and think about the future. This is a good time I hope for everyone to reflect on that so that we can all come together in support of a good balanced deal.

SR: At the same time though Christmas is a time for reflection as you say but also the clock’s ticking, Brexit getting closer and the prospect of no deal increasing as well. If you need forward no-deal planning, can you guarantee that money won’t be diverted from the education budget in order to fund that? It’s a direct question so I’d appreciate a direct answer.

DAMIAN HINDS: I’ll give you a very direct answer, education is an absolutely top priority of the government, that’s why it is one of the two domestic budgets, the school budget is one of the two domestic budgets that’s been protected since 2010 and we will absolutely be protecting that on an ongoing basis. That is not to say by the way that no deal isn’t a very serious thing and is something we absolutely need to avoid but no, education is absolutely a top priority come what may.

SR: Now Theresa May has earned some praise for keeping going in the face of some pretty stiff opposition but I just wonder at what point it looks like she is sticking her fingers in her ears because after having to delay the vote she said she’s listen, after having the confidence vote in her leadership where 170 of her own MPs voted against her she said she would listen and I can’t really detect any sign of her actually changing course in any meaningful way. Have I missed it?

DAMIAN HINDS: Well the Prime Minister has been listening and this has been a very long process, going through all these negotiations and at all stage the Prime Minister has been listening to colleagues in Parliament and of course to people more broadly as well and that helps to inform the negotiations but at the end of the day there are some conflicting objectives, not everybody thinks the same thing so in listening, listening to different groups, you have to come up with a balanced approach which works for our country, works for all the people in our country whichever way they voted in the referendum. Think about the interests of fishermen, think about the interests of farmers, you have got to think about the automotive industry and those just in time supply lines. You have got to think about the key things that people voted on in that referendum, ending free movement, and so you end up with a balanced deal much like the one that she’s done. But there are concerns understandably about the backstop and that’s why she is expending all this time and energy working with the other European leaders to secure additional reassurances on that.

SR: Okay, a balanced deal, I’ve definitely got that memo so I think we can move on from the balanced deal. You had the no confidence motion in the Prime Minister and at that time the Conservative party decided to restore the whip to two MPs who had been suspended. One of them is still under investigation by police for allegations of sexual misconduct, something that he denies. The other resigned after sending hundreds of explicit messages to two women in his constituency including “I can’t wait to beat her, can she take a beating?” Are you proud that the whip was restored to those two men?

DAMIAN HINDS: Well in those two cases with those two colleagues were elected as Conservative MPs, they were there to represent their constituents and so I think it is right that in the election for … the confidence vote that there was, I think it’s right that they should have been able to be part of that vote as their constituents would expect.

SR: Okay, I want to talk about your brief and we haven’t got too long left in the interview sadly. You are announcing more money for special needs in schools so just explain what you are hoping to do and is this new money?

DAMIAN HINDS: Yes, there have been questions, significant questions on local authority budgets for high needs which covers special educational needs and disabilities and some other areas as well. More money has actually been going into high needs over the last few years and particularly since we brought in, in 2014 with the Children and Family’s Act, the Education Health and Care Plans and so today we’re announcing additional revenue, £40 million over two years, to help to ease some of those funding pressures on the revenue side but also capital money to spend on improved facilities and equipment, things like sensory rooms, expanding SEN units in mainstream schools and things like that and also looking to be able to provide more places in special schools where that’s the right thing for that child. A number of other reforms as well around training more educational psychologists and making sure that we’ve got the right training in place for all teachers so that all schools are best equipped to be able to help and support children with special educational needs.

SR: Of course we all know about the big budget pressures on schools so is it new money or will it be ring fenced?

DAMIAN HINDS: So it is money that goes specifically to what’s called the High Needs block in local authorities and they allocate money for the different purposes of special needs. You ask where the money comes from, no other budget is cut in order to be able to do this, it’s money that’s come from … when we adjust our projections which happens every year in terms of the number of pupils in schools, the characteristics of different pupils, with the money that has been available from that reprojection it was my top priority to be able to put additional resources towards high needs, special educational needs, so that’s what we’ve done.

SR: So not new money then from the Treasury, it is from within the existing schools budget?

DAMIAN HINDS: It is from the existing Department for Education budget but no other programme has been cut in order to be able to do this.

SR: Okay. I’m keen to ask you as well about whether there is a wider issue in schools because of the one size fits all education policy. You were talking about children with high needs, we know there are mental health pressures on our young people, do you think in the past there has been too much of a focus on having all children no matter what their personalities, no matter what their needs, focus on a very academic curriculum where you are expected to be sitting behind a desk for all these hours a day right up to the age of 18, is that failing our young people?

DAMIAN HINDS: Well we have a very good curriculum with balance in it with a wide variety of subjects, like by the way schools in other schools as well. There is provision rightly for children with special needs and in some cases it is right for those children to be in special schools but in very many cases it’s right for them to be in mainstream schools but I want to see a broad and balanced curriculum where children are able to try different subjects, try different things and also the balance with sport and extra-curricular activities and so on, and that is absolutely what I will continue to strive to do.

SR: Is there too much of a focus on exams do you think?

DAMIAN HINDS: Exams are important, they are important for lots of different reasons. One of the things is that it is a unique way of being able to set out what you’ve learnt, to show what you can do and what comes with exams, there is some pressure that comes with exams but in some ways that is rather like what happens later in life and so in some ways it is a good way to prepare you for later life but it is not only about exams. What we all want for our children is a broad and balanced education, we want them to discover the joy of learning, to be able later in life to come back to great literature and history that they’ve discovered and we also want them to be able to discover other talents that they had in practical things and in the arts and music and so on and I think it’s really important that in our education system there is absolutely that breadth and we recognise that education, yes, it’s about leaving with GCSEs but it is also about everything else, it’s about the development of character, the development of self. You also mentioned mental health pressures earlier, we also have greater focus these days on some of the pressures on kids these days that weren’t around when we were children, things like the internet and social media and stuff and yes, we do need to make sure we have enhanced support for that too.

SR: Okay, Damian Hinds, thank you very much.

DAMIAN HINDS: Thanks Sophy.