Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with David Lammy Labour MP

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: This week 71 Labour MPs put their names to a letter calling for a second referendum or a People’s Vote and yesterday Labour’s Shadow Brexit Secretary appeared to take the party one step closer to backing one but there is frustration amongst some on the back benches that the party’s leadership isn’t quite there yet. Well joining us now is David Lammy, thank you very much for being with us on the programme today. Now you are perhaps one of the most vocal supporters of a second referendum and I just want to put directly to you some of what people were telling me in Whitstable. If I can just pull a quote up so we can know exactly what we’re talking about, this is from a young man called Jack Ryan, a fisherman, he said: “I voted already and if they take it back to another vote because they haven’t got the answer they wanted then what’s the point in us even voting?” I mean that is a sentiment that comes back again and again, what’s the point in me voting if it is just going to be ignored?

DAVID LAMMY: I understand that, I was in Peterborough a few weeks ago and people were saying similar things. They are really frustrated with Westminster and politicians for not coming up with a solution but the point is this, we either leave with no deal and that is a very painful Brexit, which it looks to me like Parliament has ruled out or we leave with a deal that is hatched by Parliamentarians which is probably a pointless Brexit, and Norway Plus is that pointless Brexit, because frankly we’ll be leaving, we’ll still have free movement, we’d still be paying the EU a lot of money and for all of those reasons it seems to me that the deal that emerges that Parliamentarians can get around, needs to have the informed consent of the British population because many people, Leavers and Remainers, will feel that they didn’t vote for it.

SR: You see that’s the thing, informed consent, because I think a lot of people will think actually they were well informed the first time round and actually it is quite patronising for MPs to say they didn’t really know what they were voting for.

DAVID LAMMY: Well let’s be honest, a lot of water has passed under the bridge. Theresa May lost by 230 odd votes, we are now in a mess, it’s a constitutional crisis. It’s not clear that there is a majority for any deal in fact so what we can’t do is crash out, which is painful. I hope a deal emerges and it is a soft Brexit but it does seem to me that there is a risk that we upset both Leavers and Remainers if basically Westminster hatches the deal and signs and delivers it and many people think I didn’t actually vote for this so it’s for that reason that you’ve got to have a final say, the British people have got to resolve this and I’ve said this before Sophy – you cannot argue that you undermine democracy with more democracy, that’s just not the way that democracies like ours establish themselves.

SR: But some people will feel that it is undermining democracy, that it is their voices being ignored. Are you not worried about some of the consequences for the country if you had to go through another referendum when the first one was so divisive?

DAVID LAMMY: Look, we’ve seen the division in the country, we see it outside Westminster with the way that some members of the public, often on the hard right, are behaving towards Parliamentarians. We see it in families that are divided across this country. Yes, of course we have to bring this to an end but it seems to me that the way to bring it to an end is to present the British people no longer with this, leave where we don’t understand what the terms of leaving are. This time we understand exactly what the terms of leaving are, when we get that deal that Parliament can sign off or indeed we can remain within the European Union which is the option I prefer, let’s be clear on that, because we’ve looked into the abyss and decided, sorry, not for us.

SR: Okay, you said a little bit earlier in the interview that you hope a deal is done. Does that mean that there is a Brexit deal that you could vote for?

DAVID LAMMY: Well certainly I would prefer a soft Brexit, somewhere like Norway, to Theresa May’s botched deal that got us nowhere and …

SR: So could you vote for that if it was on the table?

DAVID LAMMY: It’s the terms under which it was put. I am very clear, and I am writing in the Observer today that I could only vote for it on the basis that there was a final say referendum because if you are someone, let’s say in a Labour heartland constituency, you thought you were getting an end to free movement and politicians have taken that off the table, you thought you weren’t going to be paying money into the EU and politicians are saying we are going to still be paying money into the EU and worse, you are now subject to all the rules of the European Union without a say, then my God surely we have got to ask the British people if they are up for that. That’s only fair. So of course economically it would be less damaging but my view is look, let’s stay in the European Union and actually have an influence on free movement, actually have an influence on the rules and actually have an influence on bureaucracy and red tape. That’s my view, let’s see what the British people think.

SR: How would you describe Labour’s current position on Brexit?

DAVID LAMMY: Well look, I think we’ve got an open goal here and I’d like the Labour party to go through the door and score the goal. The only way of doing that it seems to me is to get us into a place where we are preparing for that final say referendum that has to take place.

SR: But at the moment Jeremy Corbyn is missing the goal, he’s hitting the crossbar.

DAVID LAMMY: Well he’s moving the goalposts and I’ve been very clear on that. We now have seen that the deal has not gone through, that a vote of confidence has not been successful as people like me predicted back in September last year. It seems to me there is no point in continuing with votes of no confidence, throwing darts and missing the board.

SR: Do you think that an election is going to happen?

DAVID LAMMY: I think an election is extremely unlikely because members of the DUP are not going to put Jeremy Corbyn, who has been a long-term friend of Sinn Fein, into Number 10, let’s be clear and even Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry are not saying that they are going to vote no confidence in a Conservative government that they prefer to Jeremy Corbyn so I don’t see any prospects of a general election. No, what we’ve got to do is get around what the alternative deal is but be clear that we should set in place the timetable now to get that second referendum that’s a final say referendum. Let’s be clear on this, the only way we are now going to get a Brexit is if the Labour party whips for it, so the question is, is the Labour party going to whip for Theresa May’s Brexit or is the Labour party going to get clear on the options for the British people, the best options for the British people and my view is the best option for the British people is now to remain within the European Union.

SR: Jeremy Corbyn has always talked about the importance of party democracy, about listening to the party members. The Conference motion was saying that they want to push for a general election, if you can’t get that then a second referendum is on the table. Now as you said, a general election seems unlikely and you have had the Conference vote so why do you think it is that the party isn’t explicitly backing a second referendum and do you think Jeremy Corbyn is going back on some of those strong words he has used in the past about the importance of listening to membership?

DAVID LAMMY: Well I think Keir Starmer was very clear yesterday. The moment has arrived for clarity and for leadership and for those of us who have campaigned for a final say people’s vote, we are absolutely clear that requires the Labour party to whip for that vote.

SR: So why has Jeremy Corbyn not done it?

DAVID LAMMY: Well I think that Jeremy has been hedging. I recognise that he has had a national leadership role and that if you went back two and a half years it is absolutely clear that the Labour party, like the Conservative party, was split on this issue but as we have travelled two and a half years, as we see the mess that Theresa May has created, as we see the red lines that she has put in place, opinions have changed across the country and they have absolutely changed across the Labour party and the Labour movement and now is the time for leadership. Let me say this, Sophy, there is a small group in our party who are so frustrated, who have so much grievance, the fear is that they are going to go off and form another party. I personally reject that but the danger is, just like 1983, a new party built around basically a relationship with Europe, keeps the Labour party out of power for a generation. I don’t want to see that …

SR: How many people are you talking about?

DAVID LAMMY: I have no idea, but you will have heard the speculation like me and one sees colleagues behaving in certain ways. Please let us unite the Labour party now, unite the Labour party around the idea and concept that ultimately whatever now happens it is clear that the British people need a final say on the deal that is going to be hatched in the corridors of Westminster in the coming weeks.

SR: Well let’s put some of that later to a member of the Shadow Cabinet. David Lammy, thank you very much.