Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with General Lord Dannatt Former Head of the British Army

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: The US President, Donald Trump, last night called on European leaders to take back more than 800 Islamic State fighters captured in Syria and put them on trial otherwise the US will be forced to release them and they could, in his words, ‘permeate Europe’. Well that all comes as America prepares to withdraw from Syria. Joining us now is the former Head of the British Army, General Lord Dannatt. Thank you very much for being on the show this morning.

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Good morning.

SR: I’m really interested to know what you think the UK government should do. Should we be taking back Islamic State fighters and putting them on trial?

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well usually I disagree with what Donald Trump says but on this occasion I think he’s right. If there are, as I think he’s correct to say, a large number of foreign fighters in captivity in Syria who originate from countries like the United Kingdom, then they are our citizens and we have a responsibility to act responsibly towards them and I think that means that they have got to come back to this country, they’ve got to be held while they are talked to and if there is sufficient evidence against any of them or many of them, then they’ve got to be put through de-process and imprisoned if that is the right thing to do but I think it’s also important that we treat them fairly and we treat them with justice but tempered with a bit of mercy as well because I think the way we treat them may well have important significance for the way other people view our society. We don’t want to see others being radicalised and going off overseas in the future so I think how we treat these people coming back, we’ve got to treat them fairly but firmly. I think it’s important that we get that right so I think in this case Donald Trump is right, they are our responsibility and we’ve got to take them back.

SR: This has really come into the news recently because of the discovery of Shamima Begum, the girl who left Bethnal Green to join Islamic State in Syria. Lots of members of the public feel she shouldn’t be able to come back, but from what you’re saying it sounds like you think that actually she’s a British citizen so she should be.

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well you’ve got to turn it round and say if she is not going to come back here, where is she going to go? She can’t stay in a refugee camp in Syria for the rest of her life, it’s not right to say the Americans can take her and the other fighters and stick them in Guantanamo. If these people are British, French, German citizens then Britain, France, Germany or whatever other country, has to take responsibility for their citizens. Now taking responsibility means that we bring them back, we talk to them, we investigate them and if there are charges that can properly be laid against them, then that should be the case and they should be put through the judicial process and punished accordingly but I think it’s important that we treat these people fairly. As I say, I think how we treat them will be seen by other minority populations in our country and that will affect how they behave in the future. It’s really important we get this right.

SR: The problem is though, it’s proven very difficult to actually put suspected members of Islamic State through trial and actually put these people through trial, hasn’t it? You can see why members of the public might be very worried about threats to our own national security if they return home.

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: I completely agree with that. I mean it’s a real challenge for our authorities but just because it’s a challenge doesn’t mean to say we shouldn’t rise to it and try and get it right. If they have been radicalised over a period of time, they can be talked to, there are some who may well want to change the way their lives are led and live more conventionally, there are others who perhaps will never change their mind in which case they are likely to be in prison for quite some time. Each case has got to be treated separately and judged on its own merits but without repeating myself ideally, I think how we treat these people is really important for the effect it will have on others in the future and on our own society. And I think a big challenge for us – and we were saying this back in 2014/15 – is to ask ourselves why, with all the opportunities in this country, do a lot of young people want to forsake all that and go away and fight in somewhere like Syria and Iraq? I think the challenge for our society is to make it sufficiently attractive, enough opportunity for people, for education and jobs and living a better life, that they want to stay and make a future in this country and not feel they have got to chase some errant dream elsewhere.

SR: I am interested to know your thoughts on the current situation in Syria as well because Donald Trump has also tweeted to say that they are pulling back after 100% caliphate victory. Has there been 100% victory and are you happy to see the US pulling back their troops in Syria?

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well I think there are several issues there. The caliphate in 2014/15 made a strategic error which has worked to our advantage in that they chose to occupy large swathes of territory and in doing that they then provided themselves, set themselves up if you like, as a physical target that could be attacked and over the last four or five years, that is what’s happened. Their territory has gradually been reduced, their towns and cities have been recaptured, Raqqa most prominently fell quite some time ago, and they are reduced to a very small little bit of territory which will probably be overrun by Allied forces really quite soon. But that doesn’t end the caliphate idea, it’s an ideology, it’s a dream, it’s a vision and it will reoccur elsewhere. I’m afraid that’s just a fact of 21st century life. The fundamentalist Islamist movement that we’ve been combatting and seen all over the place since 9/11 is going to crop up elsewhere, we’re seeing it particularly in sub-Saharan Africa at the present moment and that is a concern as we will probably see it elsewhere in the Middle East. So it’s not 100% victory, we may well complete the recapture of the territory that they had but the ideology, the thinking, the support behind it, that is going to continue and that will become or will remain the struggle for this generation, perhaps even the next generation as well.

SR: Now it seems I can’t get through an interview at the minute without mentioning Brexit so I’m interested to know your thoughts on whether Britain’s role in the world is going to be increased or diminished after we leave the European Union.

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well given we are going to leave the European Union on the 29th March in some shape or form and we’ll have a continuing relationship with Europe, again in some shape or form, almost by definition we are therefore saying we want to play a more global role and we want to be trading with Commonwealth countries, if we can restore relations with China after the aircraft carrier business we’ll want to do that and trade with India. So we will want to take a more global position and I think that’s a perfectly reasonable thing for us to do and it’s not just about trade, I think it’s about influence as well and we have to work out how we are going to exercise that influence and I think there is an important harmonisation between our diplomatic skills, our defence capabilities and the way that we use our development money as well as trade. I think putting all those things together, that is the way the UK should use its influence beneficially in the world in the future as well as improving our trading opportunities.

SR: Now you served in Belfast in the early 1970s and in your memoirs you wrote that this was not just rioting and civil disorder, it was war. So from your wealth of experience across the sea, what would be the consequences of a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland and are you worried that politicians are putting the peace process at risk?

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well the peace process must not be put at risk. Just to go back to the start of your comment there, in 1972 alone we lost 102 British soldiers killed in the Province of Northern Ireland. That’s a figure that was only exceeded once in the combined operations in Iraq and Afghanistan in more recent times so a tremendous amount of blood and treasure was expended in making life in Northern Ireland much more peaceful, much better for the inhabitants of Northern Ireland so whatever happens, we must make sure that we don’t provide conditions again whereby Northern Ireland can regress to a position akin to the Troubles which went on for such a long time. So this whole business of a hard border, there must not be a hard border. I am one of those who believes that with imagination and determination there are ways that can be produced that means we can continue to trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland without having to go with men with clipboards and flat caps standing at country checkpoints. Frankly, if you buy a newspaper and it’s bar-coded, I cannot see why goods and services cannot be identified, traced, taxed as necessary at their points of origin and don’t have to be taxed at the point where they cross an international boundary.

SR: Well let’s fingers crossed and hope you’re right. The Defence Secretary, moving on, made a pretty forward speech this week, shall we say. He says he wants to see increased lethality, the Chancellor has now had to cancel a trip to China after he said he wanted to send a warship into the Pacific, Russia has dubbed him the Minister for War rather than the Minister for Defence. Do you think he needs to tone it down a bit?

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well Gavin Williamson is a very enthusiastic individual and he has taken his portfolio at Defence seriously. Yes, I think we all know he is pretty ambitious as well and wants to use Defence as a platform to develop his own career, I’m afraid a number of politicians do that. He has also recognised, I think quite correctly, that we do not spend enough on defence in this country. When Philip Hammond was Secretary of State for Defence, seven, eight, nine years’ ago, we were spending about 2.4% of GDP on defence and now it is just down to 2% so Gavin Williamson is trying to make the case for us to spend more on defence. Was he right to say we are going to send our aircraft carrier off to the Spratly Islands? To be honest, I don't think he is. I think actually it’s premature. The aircraft carrier Queen Elizabeth is a very fine looking ship but it hasn’t got its full complement of aeroplanes yet so let’s get the thing properly equipped, properly sorted out and then use it responsibility. Just because we’ve got it, doesn’t mean to say we use it. Most defence capabilities we hold in readiness that really demands them to be used, we don’t just use it or send it because we can so I think he might have actually just over-sold that one over the last few days and if it has had the disappointing effect that the Chancellor’s trip to China where he was going to be talking about trade and that kind of thing, if that’s been cancelled as a result then that’s a bad diplomatic move and I think Gavin’s got that one wrong.

SR: Okay, now while we’ve got you, I have to ask you, this week the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said that Churchill was a villain because of his role in Tonypandy so I’m going to put the same question to you – Winston Churchill, hero or villain?

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Well I am an unreconstructed fan of Winston Churchill and as far as I’m concerned he made virtually every mistake in the book which he learnt from a lot of those experiences as he went through his career but he was the right man for this country in May 1940 and I often think if Lord Halifax had become Prime Minister I think he’d have made a separate peace with Hitler in May 1940 and they may well have come after us the following year and I think the map of Europe would look very different and the Brexit debate we’re having would probably be completely irrelevant.

SR: Okay, Lord Dannatt, thank you very much, from a very beautiful but chilly looking Norfolk, I’ll let you go and warm up, thank you.

GENERAL LORD DANNATT: Thank you Sophy.