Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with Hilary Benn

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Boris Johnson has promised that if he is Prime Minister the UK will leave the EU on the 31st October, deal or no deal and one man who is at the forefront of stopping a no deal Brexit is our next guest, the Chair of the Brexit Select Committee, Hilary Benn. This week MPs tried to seize control of the parliamentary timetable to prevent no deal and they failed, will they have more success in the future? Let’s find out, Hilary Benn joins us now, thank you very much for being with us.

HILARY BENN: Good morning Sophy.

SR: Well it does feel as if the momentum is behind Boris Johnson to be the next Prime Minister and he of course has said that he is prepared to take the UK out of the EU without a deal if that’s what it takes, are you going to try and stop him?

HILARY BENN: Yes, because it would be completely irresponsible for any Prime Minister to do that because of the economic damage it would do to the country. We took evidence again in the Select Committee from representatives of manufacturers, car makers, farmers, the food and drink industry and you just have to look at what they said. They said it would be disastrous, it is simply not an option, economic vandalism were the words used by the representative of Make UK which represents manufacturers in the United Kingdom. How can any Prime Minister advocate that and what is clear, Sophy, we know already that the House of Commons does not support a no deal Brexit and there is no mandate from the referendum for a no deal Brexit because the Leave campaign never argued for one.

SR: You say there’s no mandate but at the same time, some people who voted Leave in that referendum will be looking at MPs like yourself and thinking you just want to stop the democratic will. Okay, perhaps many people would have liked to leave with a deal but if it was a choice of not leaving at all and leaving without a deal, that is what they would go for, they believe that is a true Brexit.

HILARY BENN: Well I don't think it is because what has occupied British politics for the last three years, why is Parliament deadlocked? Because the referendum didn’t decide what the future economic relationship would be after we have left and the current Prime Minister Theresa May tried three times to get Parliament to approve her deal. Whoever wins the Tory leadership contest will return to find the same numbers in the House of Commons and the last time we voted formally and specifically on whether we supported a no deal Brexit or not, that was defeated by 400 votes …

SR: But at the same time, you lost your attempt last week didn’t you? It’s not as if it is always clear cut that you always win all the votes that you put forward.

HILARY BENN: Well the vote last week was a procedural motion, a business motion to, as we said, book a slot on the Parliamentary agenda but the last time we voted just on the question ‘Does Parliament approve or not approve a no deal Brexit?’ there was a huge defeat for a no deal Brexit and there is no mandate for it and I don't think whoever wins can somehow claim that being elected by the Conservative party membership is a mandate for something that Parliament has already rejected and was not argued for by the Leave campaign during the referendum.

SR: I just wonder, will you be able to do what you hope? You haven’t got much time have you? I mean Parliament breaks for the summer and you have all of August off, come back for a couple of weeks and then there’s party conference season and we’re supposed to be leaving in October, have you got time to do this?

HILARY BENN: Well it is going to be difficult but the same problem will apply to the new Prime Minister because either the Withdrawal Agreement is going to be reopened in negotiation but you’ve made it very clear it won’t but look, I think there are one or two other options using the Parliamentary rule book to enable MPs to do their job which is to express their view. But look, if it comes down to it and the House of Commons votes to pass a motion to say this House does not agree to the United Kingdom leaving the EU without an agreement, is it seriously being argued by whoever becomes Prime Minister that they are going to say to MPs I’m going to ignore what you have just said? I don't think that is a politically or indeed a constitutionally sustainable position and that’s why I’ve come to the conclusion – and a growing number of MPs have although we are not yet a majority – that the only way to break the deadlock is to present the real choices to the British people: on the one hand this is what Leave looks like and on the other hand this is the option of Remain. I don't know whether the British people have changed their minds or not because the other thing we’ve learned, Sophy, after three years is that the promise we were offered, we can have all our sovereignty back said the Leave campaign but don’t worry, we are going to maintain all of the economic benefits. David Davis, the exact same benefits, the easiest trade deal in history.

SR: But doesn’t this just feed into people’s suspicions? You say look, we are trying to avoid the economic vandalism of the no deal and yet people will hear you talking about another referendum and they think, this is what it’s about, I knew it all along, it’s about MPs trying to block Brexit.

HILARY BENN: No, it’s about taking the real choice three years on back to the British people and that is democratic. After all, as you know Sophy, the Prime Minister tried twice to return to the House of Commons to get us to vote for her deal and said it was democratic. I don’t disagree with that, I think the government was entitled to do it. You might call it ill-advised but if it is democratic to ask MPs whether they’ve changed their mind about the Prime Minister’s deal, is it actually undemocratic to say to the British people ‘We’re stuck’? Now you might criticise us for the fact that Parliament is deadlocked but we can’t go on like this because whether you are a Brexiteer or a Remainer, the damage that is being done to our international reputation, to our economy, to the uncertainty that we haven’t yet resolved this question, it seems to me that’s the only way you can sort this out.

SR: A quick thought from you on the idea of proroguing Parliament, it is something one of our guests on the show has talked about, Dominic Raab. If he becomes Prime Minister he hasn’t ruled out the idea of effectively suspending Parliament if it tries to block no deal.

HILARY BENN: It would be scandalous to use that to try to, in effect, shut the doors of the House of Commons so that MPs can’t meet and express a view. We are elected as Members of Parliament to represent our constituents and we can’t do our job if we are locked out and I simply don’t think it is going to happen.

SR: Okay, now I’m keen to talk to you about another story that has been in the news today, attacks on two oil tankers in the Gulf of Oman.

HILARY BENN: Yes indeed.

SR: Now the Foreign Office and the US have pointed the finger at Iran, Jeremy Corbyn has tweeted and this is what he said about what happened, he said: “Without credible evidence about the tanker attacks, the government’s rhetoric will only increase the threat of war.” What do you make of Jeremy Corbyn’s response?

HILARY BENN: We need to see the evidence and therefore we need an international investigation. Some of the tankers are being towed into port, they need to be examined and I think the results of that should be reported to the United Nations because it’s really important that we see the evidence.

SR: So you don’t believe the Foreign Office?

HILARY BENN: I don't know, the honest answer is I don't know and nor do you and nor does anybody else. Now as the evidence is gathered, then people can make their judgement and I think the United Nations is the right place to do that. The second thing I would do is if these attacks continue then the international community ought to take steps to protect vessels that are passing through the Straits of Hormuz, that has happened in the past for example in the Iran/Iraq War but thirdly, we have to address the cause of the tension with Iran which was the United States decision to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal. Now it wasn’t perfect, there are other things that Iran is doing that are very destabilising in the region, their holding of Nazanin Zaghari Radcliffe who started a hunger strike yesterday is outrageous and the Iranian government should release her back to her family and her daughter and her husband as soon as possible but the Iran nuclear deal was the result of patient difficult diplomacy and almost everyone except the United States accepted that Iran was abiding by the terms of the deal. Now it’s facing the sanctions, if it is undertaking these attacks it is of course completely wrong of them to do so but we have to address the root causes and we cannot have a conflict and therefore we need to de-escalate the tension rather than to ratchet it up.

SR: Okay, thank you very much for coming on the programme.