Sophy Ridge on Sunday Interview with John McDonnell MP Shadow Chancellor

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SKY NEWS, SOPHY RIDGE ON SUNDAY

SOPHY RIDGE: Our next guest needs little introduction, it’s the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. Hello to you, thanks for being on the show.

JOHN McDONNELL: Morning.

SR: Now before we go on with the rest of the interview I did want to give you the opportunity to respond to an interview that we did a bit earlier in the show with Sir Richard Dearlove, the former Head of MI6 who said that he is troubled by some of Jeremy Corbyn’s past associations, some of which he finds surprising and worrying. What’s your response to those concerns?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well I’m not surprised. Look this is a member, a reactionary member of the establishment so I don't think he’d welcome a Labour government of any sort to be frank and I’m disappointed with him but there you are. Can I just say to him directly, I think he should spend his retirement in quiet contemplation of the role that he played with regard to the Iraq war where over half a million people, at least, were killed. He was strongly criticised as the head of an organisation whose intelligence took us into that war so I think he should have a bit of humility about the judgements he makes about individuals and others in the future.

SR: Okay, some very strong words from you there, Mr McDonnell. Now I want to move on to …

JOHN McDONNELL: Well they were strong words from him with the greatest respect and if you look at the Chilcot Inquiry, his organisation was strongly criticised for its role and he was the head of that and it had severe consequences that we’re even living with now so I think he should spend his retirement with a bit of humility quite honestly.

SR: Okay, now I do also want to talk about the interview or Theresa May writing in the Observer this morning, she is making what’s really an unashamed pitch for Labour voters saying that if you are a centre ground Labour supporter the Conservatives are currently the party for you. She’s also talked of course about ending austerity, are you worried about this pitch from the Prime Minister?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well it looks as though she is making a pitch for Labour support because she’s got so little support in her own party. If you read the stories this morning there are a group of Conservative MPs who are threatening to, well have a coup and then not vote for her own budget. They’re falling apart so it’s no wonder that she’s desperately looking for support, fairly cynically, from anywhere. No, I’m not worried at all. Look, this issue she announced in her speech at conference about the end of austerity, they’ve announced it three times already and it’s not happened and isn’t it ironic that in the very week that she announces the end of austerity we discover that members of her Cabinet are being briefed that families will lose out on £200 a month as a result of the roll out of Universal Credit. The Institute of Fiscal Studies are saying that 75% of the welfare cuts have still got to be rolled out over the coming couple of years so there is no end of austerity, quite the reverse. What’s happening is the austerity rolls on and people are really suffering, some of the most vulnerable within our society.

SR: Okay, I want to talk to you about Universal Credit because Labour’s current policy on Universal Credit which you are very open in your criticism of it, your current policy is just to pause it and to fix it, so can you not give us a clear answer now about whether or not it would be Labour’s policy in the next election or if a Labour government would actually scrap Universal Credit or if you’d just keep it despite your criticisms?

JOHN McDONNELL: I think most people now are coming to the conclusion that it’s got to be scrapped. I’ve been listening to people over the last few weeks about the roll out in their particular areas, I’ve been looking at what the government has said, how they are seeking to reform it. Their reforms haven’t worked and I think we’re at that stage now where it’s not sustainable anymore, it’s not a system that can work, it’s not a system that is providing the safety net that people expect when they need support so I think we are moving to a position now where it is just not sustainable, it will have to go. If there are reforms that could be effective, fair enough, let’s reform but we’ve looked and looked and we can’t see that either government proposals or other proposals could reform it, the system is so, well it’s in shambles and I think it is actually iniquitous as well. To have government ministers being privately briefed that families are going to lose £200 a month, and these are some of the poorest families in our community, it’s just not acceptable so I think we’re moving towards a conclusion now that you can’t save the thing, it’s got to go.

SR: So if that is the case and you say it’s got to go, I mean the principles of Universal Credit are hard to disagree with which is that it should pay to be in work rather than to not be in work and also that the system should be simplified. I mean £1.9 billion has been ploughed into Universal Credit, what are you going to replace it with? It is very easy to point the finger and call out a policy but what would you replace it with?

JOHN McDONNELL: Well that’s exactly what we’ve been saying over the last, well the last year, since the last general election. We now need a proper consultation, a root and branch examination of how we can go forward to make sure people do get the proper support. The principles of bringing benefits together in one so it’s a much simpler system we all support but this hasn’t done that, it’s made it more complex but in addition to that it seems to have actually penalised the very people we want to support. As I say, we’ve got four million children out there in our community, two-thirds of them in families where someone’s at work, that cannot be right. That means that wages are so low and support for them through Universal Credit and elsewhere is so low as well so we have got to have a system now that really works and now I think we have to recognise that this system isn’t working, what system do we now need? Let’s have an open debate, maybe a cross-party debate about how we can bring people again to re-establish a system which is a proper security net, safety net for people, where we do not have people who are on benefits but who are still having to turn up at food banks. Last year over, what was it, one and a quarter million food parcels handed out in the sixth richest country in the world, that cannot be right. This system is not working.

SR: A bit earlier we were talking about Theresa May’s pitch for Labour voters and at conference both Theresa May and Sajid Javid, the Home Secretary, spoke about the fact that they admire Diane Abbott for her resilience in the face of the abuse that she receives even though they disagree with some of her policies, so in the spirit of trying to reach out to try to win over other party’s voters, can you tell me if there are any Conservative MPs that you admire?

JOHN McDONNELL: I’m sorry, I didn’t pick up the last piece of the question, the sound went.

SR: I was just asking in the spirit of reaching out to win over the opposition’s voters, are there any Conservative MPs that you admire?

JOHN McDONNELL: Look to be frank, I have worked with Conservative MPs on a cross-party basis, I’ve worked with David Davis on issues around human rights, I’ve worked with Zak Goldsmith around the issue of the third runway at Heathrow and on those particular issues we have worked co-operatively etc and yes, at times I’ve admired them for the courage in which they’ve stood up for their principles, Justine Greening is another one of course, there are other people like that who on their particular issues have been strong and brave and courageous and I’ve congratulated them for it, I’ve appeared on public platforms with them but this issue about Diane Abbott, let me just say this. I find it a bit hypocritical that Sajid Javid and the Prime Minister have referred to Diane in that way because it was the Conservative campaign, the Conservative party campaign, that during the election said a lot of the criticism, well in fact they set the dogs onto Diane. If you look at what happened in the media, the Tory press were abysmal and that was set up by the Conservative party during their campaign. They personalised the campaign because they did not want to debate the policy issues so I find it somewhat hypocritical I have to say.

SR: Now a very quick thought from you, because we are running out of time, but I’m interested to get your reaction that a prominent Saudi journalist who has disappeared in Turkey after going into the Saudi Arabian Consulate there, your reaction?

JOHN McDONNELL: It’s appalling and if the information that’s coming out is true, it is absolutely appalling, it’s unacceptable. We, along with other nations now, should stand up to the Saudi government and make sure they know it is unacceptable and if this means taking action in some form, we should take those actions. I’ve been on a number of demonstrations when the Saudi regime have sent representatives here because of human rights abuses and if this is another example of that, we’ve got to be much firmer.

SR: Mr McDonnell, John McDonnell, thank you very much.