Sunday with NIall Paterson Interview with Lord Adonis

ANY QUOTES USED MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO SUNDAY WITH NIALL PATERSON, SKY NEWS

NIALL PATERSON: Well Brexit isn’t a done deal yet, that’s the battle cry for the band of Remainers refusing to give up the fight against the UK leaving the EU. Their leader is something of an unexpected figure, an infrastructure expert and Labour lord who has taken to touring the country as well as picking a few fights on Twitter as well. Lord Adonis joins me now in the studio, lovely to see you.

LORD ADONIS: Morning.

NP: Explain to me the purpose of this grand tour, for want of a better phrase, that you’ve been on. You’ve been touring the country, speaking to people, trying to persuade them of what?

LORD ADONIS: Well Brexit is not a done deal, parliament has not yet decided that we’re leaving the European Union, there are negotiations taking place, the Prime Minister is conducting those. She’ll bring a deal back at the end of the year and then parliament needs to decide. What I think is absolutely vital between now and then is that we get to grips with the big crisis that is indeed facing the country, a crisis of education, health, housing, a real sense of alienation in large parts of the country which is very clear to me is what played a big part in the Brexit vote two years ago and it is extremely important that we hear that at first hand so I’m visiting all of the places that voted most heavily to leave the European Union two years ago and talking to people to get a sense of what’s really happening. What the message that I’m picking up is that there is real concern about what’s going on in the country, people’s living standards have been falling, they think the public services are in a bad state, a lot of these communities are disintegrating but Brussels and getting out of the European Union is not the answer, the answer is better policies at home and in particular an end to austerity and much more constructive policies when it comes to reforming the NHS, improving education and in particular opportunities for young people because young people in our society who don’t go on to university at the moment get an extremely raw deal and we need to put that right.

NP: Let’s start with almost the first thing that you said there, that parliament has not yet decided that the UK should leave the European Union, now that is a debatable point. At the same time surely the British public has decided that we are leaving the European Union, the manner in which we leave is a matter for debate but the fact is we are to come out of the European Union, that’s what people voted for.

LORD ADONIS: That’s not the case at all. What happened two years ago was a vote on whether or not we wanted the government to start the process of negotiating leaving the European Union but nobody could see the terms, we had no idea what was going to happen to our trade, what was going to happen to the whole future of our organisation in terms of security, all of these big issues that matter, we couldn’t have known about that …

NP: Wasn’t that an argument though better made before the question was drafted and put to the people? The idea that the referendum vote that we had did anything other than give the government the approval of the people to take us out of the European Union or otherwise seems to be demonstrably the case.

LORD ADONIS: But in fact of course the people couldn’t approve a deal which didn’t exist. The key issue now is that the government after the referendum rightly started the process of negotiating to leave the European Union, they will produce a deal. When that deal is put to parliament by the Prime Minister at the end of the year, then we can see what’s going to happen to our trade, you know, that 350 million a week which was supposed to be going to the NHS, does it exist? It’s quite clear it doesn’t and my argument is …

NP: But these are arguments that were had during the referendum campaign and we had a vote at the end of it, people decided which case they believed more, remain, leave, and they did so.

LORD ADONIS: No, they weren’t arguments we had at the time because we didn’t know at the time what was going to happen to the customs union, the single market, to our trade, to the financial deal. You know, we had the 350 million a week for the NHS and it’s now clear we’ve got a 39 billion exit fee and what I’m saying, and I think the argument that is going to get increasing traction over the next few months, is look, you had a wish list two years ago and people expressed a view on that, now we’ve got the actual terms, we’re a democracy, parliament, and in my view the British people, should make a judgement and where I’m critical of parts of the media, particularly the BBC at the moment is that they seem to be regarding it as a done deal that we’re leaving the European Union when it is absolutely not a done deal at the moment. Parliament will take the final say, it can if it chooses to do so refer it to the people. We don’t leave until next March, the biggest issue in British politics at the moment is whether the right thing to do when we see the terms is to leave the European Union or, as I believe, to have a big programme of reform at home to deal with the problems which are afflicting the country but not to scapegoat Europe and foreigners and bail out of the EU.

NP: We’ll deal with, as you described it, the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation, in a moment or two but it strikes me that actually, according to the polling evidence, the majority of people in the UK, including those who voted to remain within the European Union, believe that the referendum result means by necessity that we come out of the European Union. It does strike me that perhaps you are not exactly speaking to crowds of thousands when you’re touring the country.

LORD ADONIS: Well at the moment of course what’s happening is that Theresa May is negotiating the terms so it doesn’t surprise me at all that the issue is off the boil while those negotiations take place and they are very complicated negotiations because of course these trade issues and the whole economic future of the country is an extremely complicated issue. Similarly Ireland and the border in Ireland, whether there is going to be a hard border or not, which is a huge issue for the future of the country, that’s being negotiated at the moment. What will happen at the end of the year, and this is as it were all the build up to it, is that Theresa May will produce her draft treaty, we will see what’s going to happen to our contributions to the EU, the 350 million for the NHS, our trade, the border in Ireland. In a democracy, the right thing to happen then is for parliament and the British people to make a judgement, not based on the wish list of two years ago but based on the actual terms and that’s what this is all building up to over the next few months.

NP: Come on, don’t you just think that the British public got it wrong? Ultimately you think that the majority of people who voted in that referendum were a bit daft and voted the wrong way.

LORD ADONIS: I don’t accept that at all. There’s a two-part process to this, the first part was starting this process of leaving on the basis that it might be a good idea and that’s what happened in the referendum two years ago but it’s like buying a house, when you actually see the survey, you see whether there is dry rot or whether the roof does need fixing and all of that and you make a judgement based on the actual terms. Now what’s actually happening at the moment essentially is that we’re conducting the survey on leaving the European Union and the British people should make the final say.

NP: Okay, now what is your problem with the way in which the BBC is operating? In the past, well since March 26th you’ve sent 44 tweets using the hashtag Brexit Broadcasting Corporation, Guido Fawkes reported you’ve sent 72 tweets attacking the BBC this week alone. Let’s take a look just at one of them actually: “For those urging me to go quiet on the BBC, it’s important to understand the Brexit and Farage are largely the creation of the BBC. This isn’t a side issue but a central issue, if we are going to win next year’s final deal referendum to honour our European destiny as a people.” The BBC created Nigel Farage, come on.

LORD ADONIS: The BBC gave Farage a platform he otherwise would not have had, 32 appearances on BBC Question Time which is their flagship news and current affairs programme, 32. Now this is …

NP: That tweet suggested that they created Brexit, that the BBC …

LORD ADONIS: I think they largely did, of course there are a lot of other things going on as well but they largely did because of the huge platform that they gave to Farage and to the whole Brexit case. But the problem is …

NP: But more people voted to leave the European Union than remain within it, doesn’t that suggest that perhaps the BBC were right to have a plurality of voices on the subject.

LORD ADONIS: I’m not of course objecting to a plurality of voices, I’m objecting to the huge prominence that they gave to Nigel Farage and his party over many years but we’re in the situation we’re in now and my complaint about the BBC, which is shared now by hundreds of thousands and I think probably millions of people given the sentiment in the country, is that Brexit is not a done deal at the moment. The BBC said to me last week that they had stopped reporting the choice between leaving and not leaving because they regarded it as now settled, that is not the case. This issue will not be settled until parliament decides at the end of the year whether, on the basis of Theresa May’s treaty, we are or aren’t leaving the European Union. Now they’re the public broadcaster, they should … and they have a duty under their charter to be impartial in their reporting of their news. My view is that they’re not, my view is that other public service …

NP: Well take a complaint to Ofcom, have they ruled on that? 72 tweets to the BBC in a week, it’s all getting a little bit Paul Mason isn’t it? You’re turning into the crazier shoutier end of Twitter, Lord Adonis.

LORD ADONIS: It’s very important you understand what’s going on here. If we are going to be moving towards another expression of the popular will, which is what I believe will happen, I think either by parliament which of course will then interact with the people, or by parliament referring this to a referendum, there’s going to be a big process of public debate at the end of the year on whether or not we leave the European Union and what we cannot have next time, as we had last time, is the BBC treating Nigel Farage as the voice of the country, which is what happened last time, and giving him huge prominence when he is the ex-ex-leader of a party at 2% in the polls, that’s the issue. Now my view is that if the BBC won’t do its job as the public service broadcaster, then some of the funding it has for news at the moment should go to other public service broadcasters like Channel 4 News which I think could probably do a better job. These are very, very big issues, the whole future of millions of people in this country is going to be determined by what happens on Brexit, we deserve a proper debate in the country and if the BBC won’t do it then others should have the opportunity.

NP: Well your grand tour no doubt continues. Lord Adonis, many thanks for being with us.